Parenting Pac-Man

[altarflame]

I've been complaining/in shock about Jake's eating pretty much since he started solids (he's 7.5 now, and eats far more than Grant or I do in a given day). I've taken him to the doctor for it twice over the years. Basically, he's always hungry and never gets full. You can't take Jake anywhere for any period of time without considering this (even if all 6 of the rest of us will be fine, because we just had a meal or it's a short trip). He eats ALL DAY LONG, EVERY DAY.

He doesn't have a tape worm or even a blood sugar issue. He's totally healthy, and HUGE for his age (as has always been the case) - he's never been overweight for his height. He was born at one ounce under 10 pounds and has been off the growth charts ever since - I actually had problems with strangers thinking he was mentally handicapped as a baby and toddler because he appeared so much older than he actually was that he seemed to be "behind."

I charted him the week he turned 7, and he was the average height and weight of a 9.5 year old. Isaac, who is a 9.5 year old, is used to being exactly his height but slightly lighter (Isaac is a little skinny, and Jake has an unusual amount of muscle and is REALLY strong - I can't hold him down to tickle him anymore...).

I am (again? still?) at a loss, because this food issue seems so unmanageable, with him...and unreasonable.

If we're driving to drop off or pick up Ananda or Aaron 30 minutes away, he has to have a snack for that hour in the car or else he feels terribly sick, often crying and sometimes even throwing up. Part of that is a motion sickness issue. Eating settles his stomach while driving. But still! It's part of this whole larger thing, that we say, "everybody find your shoes! Jake, grab some food!" anytime we're leaving the house O_o It was a running theme at PATH meetings last year that it wasn't possible for me to bring a big enough food bag that he wasn't miserable by the time we were leaving.

I've had to talk to his music camp directors every year (this is the third summer running) because he can't eat breakfast and then wait until lunch, like EVERYBODY ELSE, or else he totally melts down every single day. So, he's basically carrying his lunchbox around day camp all day, instead, eating nonstop. It doesn't seem to interfere with his ability to practice and learn his instrument, write out time lines and staffs, and do singalongs. He's eating as they transition between activities and during recess and things like that, which the adults seem ok with - but I pack him between 2-3 times what Isaac and Elise take. Then, he literally walks in the front door and heads straight to the kitchen when I bring them home in the afternoon, and happily tells me about his day. While eating.

This is the situation:
-He eats really, really well. Like raw bell peppers and other vegetables, pitas and hummus, fresh fruit, nuts, etc - he's not at all picky about things we cook, and only drinks water most of the time.
-He's very independent and doesn't bother anyone about it, when home - I'm always seeing that he's heating leftovers in the toaster oven or making himself a sandwich/salad, or mixing honey and granola into yogurt. Point being, it's not like him eating nonstop is any "bother," or infringement on my time when it gets crazy.
-He doesn't make himself sick, or act sluggish or overfull, and this doesn't interfere with him eating at mealtimes. He goes to the bathroom normally and his belly is flat.
-He doesn't obsess about food when it's there - he just eats a lot. He still builds with legos and K'Nex, writes and draws, plays outside, watches movies, etc all day everyday. He only seems preoccupied with food when it's limited or unavailable.
-He's a REALLY chill, calm, good kid...that turns into a complete angry crying nutcase when hungry. There's almost never a reason to intervene with what Jake is doing when he's regulating his own food, but if he's been unable to eat for a couple of hours he's an inconsolable nightmare. It is irrational and out of bounds.
-We can afford this. Mostly. I mean, sometimes it gets stressful, but it doesn't cause us the stress or urgency it might other people. We've long accepted the grocery bill as our biggest expense around here. I guess the point is, money is not the issue here for me, with this.

I'm worried that he has a total emotional dependence on food! Or, a health issue we aren't picking up on. Or, is totally fine FOR NOW but will grow to be one of those 500 pound adults that has to be lifted out of their house by a crane (obesity and diabetes run up and down both sides of his family tree, and he's definitely got two overweight parents - although all four of his grandparents are normal weight).

I mean, no joke guys, this is what Jake ate yesterday:

-BIG (what most people would call double or triple sized) bowl of oatmeal for breakfast...this is steel cut oats with fruit and milk, it's really filling stuff I can't eat that much of. And 3-4 pieces of "healthy" bacon (haha, I mean that no sulfite/sulfate stuff that's preserved in celery juice, and we cook it on the george foreman).

-in his lunch, he had/ate a tupperware with about another cup of that oatmeal in it, a PBJ, a clementine, a fruit leather, a granola bar and a chocolate pudding. He ate it all at camp.

-When he got home, I lost track. I know I heated him two full bowls of leftover kale and bean soup at different points, he got himself at least a couple of snacks like bell peppers and apples and chips with salsa, I saw some peanut butter toast, and he had a piece of spinach and feta pizza and some cereal before bed.

I mean...that's insane, right? It seems disturbing to me that I'm pretty sure this would present major problems if we tried to put him in school. We aren't planning to, and we're homeschooling for reasons that have nothing to do with eating, but - that's fucking weird, the idea that a school day would be unmanageable because he needs to eat near-constantly.

We put a lot of effort in, last year, to get him to STOP identifying as a "hungry boy," to make the other kids quit going on and on about how much he eats, and to not anticipate him taking down mass quantities of food at each meal in how we serve his (initial) plates, because we started to worry that maybe we had set up some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy by going on too much about his eating. Like he could internalize it as part of his identity? He wanted to be the Very Hungry Caterpillar for Halloween one year! I don't really know if that's a part of this or not - he definitely ate like a trash compactor for awhile before we all saw him that way - but we've definitely shifted the talk and the visible expectations around significantly, anyway. He still goes back for thirds and ends up having 5 or more huge tacos total, at dinner. Which, again...he is chowing down on a small amount of meat buried under greens, beans, avocado, tomatoes, and sharp cheddar. With multiple cups of water. Just. WTF?!

Here's a video from yesterday, of Jake carrying Isaac on his shoulders:

Their camp has a field trip to see a play today. A flyer was actually sent home asking to make sure all the kids had a big breakfast since lunch would be slightly delayed. Last year, the highway bus ride and length of the play they went and saw caused major meltdown problems for Jake, and he was talking about how horrible it had been and how he'd just cried and cried in his seat in the audience for like 2 weeks afterward. I made him change into cargo shorts and load his pockets with emergency snacks, this morning. I tried to at least make it non-crinkly-sounding, quiet, non-crumby things so that he wouldn't be a disturbance? I figure it's less of a disturbance for him to quietly eat something now and then, than it would be for him to cry and get up to find a teacher and explain how miserable he is :p But it underlies the ridiculousness of the whole situation!

What is the deal with him?!

Comments

[ariellejuliana.livejournal.com]

I know you said it wasn't blood sugar related, but I would maybe look in to that a little more and see if something is getting overlooked. Maybe check blood sugar throughout the day for a while to see what it's doing? It's possible he just has a lightning fast metabolism and needs to eat a LOT, but the meltdowns and freaking out in between meals seems concerning to me. Also, maybe he needs some more fat- and protein-dense food? It's awesome that he eats so many veggies, but you mention a lot of oatmeal, veggies, fruit, bean soup, water and I wonder if eating more fat and protein at meals would help him stave off those emergency situations. Obviously he's eating some, and maybe enough for most people (bacon, beans, etc) but he might metabolize the carbohydrate foods faster than others. Oatmeal fills me up easily but lasts me about an hour at best, while I'll be fine for hours on a bunch of eggs. The lunch you mentioned would probably be fine for most people, but as a person that needs lots of fat and protein and not carbs to function well, I'd get shaky and feel over-sugared pretty easily on that.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

He ate three or four pieces of bacon with the oatmeal! That has to count for something ;)

That was an unusually sugary lunch, actually...today he had breakfast burritoes with sausage and eggs in them, and his lunch was an extra breakfast burrito wrapped up, and then a tupperware of Grant's jambalaya (with beans, sausage, chicken, rice, some little peppers and onions), jello with fruit in it, a sandwich...I don't know. I only make kale and bean soup once or twice a month at most, we have the taco dinner I described about twice a week! And his greek yogurt snack has been his ongoing mainstay for years...even his salads are full of almond slivers and chicken pieces.

We did a 24 hour urine test when he was an older toddler because I just could not believe the quantities of food he consumed, or how he acted when he didn't have that much. He was already potty trained, so I'm guessing that was at almost 3 years old. I talked to our ped about this last year and he just did the physical as usual, asked me about the height of men in our family (Grant has uncles in the 6'4" range, and my Dad is 6'2") and nodded that he's going to be huge. *sigh* Maybe I'll bring it up again. It's highly possible that the man just does not understand what I mean when I say A LOT OF FOOD.

It is hard to not fall back on carbs sometimes just because of quantity and pricing issues. Nothing seems to slow him down, so sometimes baking a million muffins or buying a case of fruit is the cheapest/easiest way to keep up!

[mizzy.livejournal.com]

I second the blood sugar... he may have hypOglycemia. My mom has it and she has to eat non stop all day to prevent the crash which makes her sick to her stomach and extremly emotional and grumpy. What happens is she eats and her blood sugar goes up like normal.. then her pancreas will produce TOO much insulin... so she needs to eat some more to get her blood sugar back up.. then her body will again produce more insulin... and its a cycle that goes like that.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I had a school and a camp nurse both think I was hypoglycemic when I was a teenager so I learned a bit about it from them (although I wasn't tested).

I've talked about hypoglycemia with his pediatrician; the thing is, he doesn't have any symptoms of the more serious problems that can sometimes correlate with hypoglycemia - for straight up repeated episodes of hypoglycemia on it's own, in kids, the only treatment is to eat really often. There's not a medication or procedure that "fixes" it...So we could do a lot of fasting experiments and blood tests that would upset him a lot to try to see for sure if he has low blood sugar when he's flipping out, but that wouldn't really result in any changes to how we handle it. Having gotten to this age without any of the really scary symptoms hypoglycemic kids can have (like fainting or seizures), they're not a big worry... He doesn't seem to have a congenital metabolic issue that would include hypoglycemia (obviously growing fine, has a normal amount of energy).

[custard-kisses.livejournal.com]

That doesn't sound too insane to me, just sounds like a healthy appetite. My kids would toast, porridge or weetbix for breakfast (maybe pilfer some baking), for school they pack their morning tea and lunch which is a sandwich or bun, a couple of pieces of fruit, a bag on mini chips, a Muslie bar and some baking. After school they are the hungriest and have fairly decent amounts of afternoon tea, they'll make toast, noodle cups, fruit and baking (not all of these, but at least two). Then they have a decent sized dinner and sometimes pudding. I'd say that all adds up to a similar amount to what he's eating. Can't say any of my kids have gone on to be eating monsters, they are tall and were all big birthweight babies but no one has grown into a massive eating machine adult because they ate a lot as a child. Just let it be, he'll probably be even more hungrier as a teenager and want to eat weird things but I'd say unless you are worried he's going to be obese from his eating then just let him be.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

You all have the most enviable metabolisms of all time. I've stopped baking completely, much to my woe and heartache, because I dropped 15 pounds within 2 weeks of going gluten free and I IMMEDIATELY gain FOUR back every time I so much as have a snack-cheat :/ Then I spend a week graduuuuuaaaally re-losing that four. It's ridic.

If I give Isaac in particular the sort of carb majority you're talking about there, he is in belly agony, can't go to the bathroom, and throws tantrums about everything :/ Oh for a food-sensitivity-free gene pool...

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I don't want water weight, either :p Anyway, the immediate gain-back is too much to really be all fat, but I think the overall loss includes some "real" weight. And even though it's plateau'd - the big thing is that this is the first time I haven't been steadily GAINING in a few years, now. I think a huge part of that is because I don't feel compulsive or addicted, about food. Something about cutting the carbs out made listening to my body's cues WAY easier, which is something I don't want to let go of. I realize that's a really subjective and complicated (and possibly placebo!) thing, so I haven't been shouting it from the roof tops. But it's so much easier to just eat when I'm hungry, and stop when I'm full, compared to the whole rest of my life...even if I just DON'T GAIN and eat normally, those are huge positives :) I stopped eating gluten in late February, so I guess we're creeping up on 5 months.

I go back and forth about the whole gluten thing having helped my inflammation problems. I've had a huge reduction in symptoms, but there are so many variables there (arthritis ebbs and flows naturally, and I also started supplementing fish oil at that point, and doing other repair-your-gut-permeability things - just all kinds of stuff). I mean I DO NOT want to toy with any variables, because the symptoms being gone is such an improvement. But, wanting to stay off of gluten is bigger than that.

[(Anonymous)]

It sounds like he needs less carbs and more quality protein. Not just beans and chicken.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

The taco meat is beef. The Greek yogurt he chows down on is loaded with protein. I mentioned nuts. In the comments, I talked about breakfast burritos. There's also nothing wrong with beans and chicken.

*sigh*

[(Anonymous)]

I agree that more protein and healthy fat in place of some of the carbs might help him stay fuller longer, but what in the world is "low quality" about beans and chicken? Beans especially are great - protein, fiber, a little fat and some complex carbs all in a convenient package.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

In a way it is cute. I love seeing any of them eat, especially eating good things*.

Fat is probably something we need to increase, for him - or not? He's pretty healthy. Just...voracious.

He would love lots of coffee. He is often put out that I limit him to about half a cup, once a week.

*One of my favorite things about Isaac's overall health improvements since diet overhaul and supplements post hospitalization has been seeing him HAVE AN APPETITE. He never starved before or anything, and probably ate more than a lot of "picky" kids out there do. But it never seemed like enough to me, and I love seeing him eat now :)

[idiolecto.livejournal.com]

He sounds a bit like Kyu: a big boy who has always been a big eater. I also am like the commenter above in that I would rather have a strong boy who enjoys food than deal with picky eating. However, I *am* concerned with Kyu's weight and am focusing on reinforcing good habits for him (like avoiding eating when bored, not being compelled to clean the plate, etc.)

For what it's worth, I now regard oatmeal as the devil. Though it's so yummy, I feel hungry and sick like clockwork about 30 minutes after eating it or any other type of cereal. It's worse than if I'd eaten nothing at all, so definitely not worth the calories in my opinion. Also: since I started really monitoring my food intake, I found that even eating certain fruits on their own makes me hangry and sick. I guess what I'm saying is, if Jake is like me, reducing carbs and/or adding more protein could help. <3

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

Jake's actually had ribs showing during some periods of his life. And I've been pretty careful about never telling any of them anything about cleaning a plate. I do worry that he's gotten into a habit of eating this way that's not always related to hunger, though.

That's a great second paragraph for me to think about. I've been in such a mindset of oatmeal being one of a few "perfect foods" for us (because it's cheap, customizable, filling, everyone loves it, and it's healthy!) for so long. But I know that my own ideas about my personal health are definitely shifting further from grains every day.

[(Anonymous)]

I might be remembering wrong, but didn't you say that you thought you has a disordered relationship with food because you didn't have much food in the house growing up? I wonder if it's actually more of a genetic thing that Jake has inherited. I know that seems crazy for a kid his age, especially considering you guys always have lots of good food in the house... but I dunno, it was just something that occurred to me.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I have definitely had a disordered relationship with food, for most of my life, and yeah that is the gist of it (I had a ton of all my favorite foods at doting grandparents' houses, and very limited and rationed crappy stuff when I was home, in a super dysfunctional environment...so eating a lot feels like all is right with the world, feeding everyone feels like loving them, etc).

I don't know if Jake has inherited this, though. I was always overweight, whereas he has never been, for one thing. His eating is also very different than mine - the issue with Jake being that he wants more food so frequently, whereas I was more of a binge eater. The biggest difference is probably that I did a lot of eating in secret, and did a lot of planning out my secret eating times, as a kid - it was all very taboo and shameful and weird. Jake just gets stuff out of the kitchen as he's talking to me and then goes back to playing after a sandwich or whatever.

FWIW, I've also always eaten way way less if I'm out and about or busy with other things, or just happy - and far more if I'm home/bored/sad about something, etc. Those sorts of life fluctuations don't seem to alter how Jake eats at all. I've never seen him request food while crying about something unrelated, for instance. He goes to Grant, me or his room if he's very upset - not the kitchen.

[eternamariposa.livejournal.com]

Dude I have to second the idea of more fat and protein and less grains. I know its hard because scrambled eggs don't travel like a granola bar, I feel your pain. But dude, I know that if I eat oatmeal with nuts and bacon on the side even, or a breakfast sandwich, or whatever combination of mostly carbs with a side of protein I feel like crap pretty quickly. I think that I usually feel the best if I am having high protein meals that have some fat and lots and lots of produce, with very limited grains of any kind. It isn't just digestive, I also notice a major sugar spike issue as grains go up in my diet. If there were ever a cave man child, Jake is it!

Maybe you could experiment with very manly, low carb breakfasts. (there are lots of cool ideas about little baked egg muffin cups that you put lots of yummy additions into, that you can make many batches of and refrigerate for time saving options) And then like what if you can pack him meat, cheese, yogurt, and produce without the grains. I wonder how he would feel if he were mostly grain free for a few days. Maybe he would balance out...or maybe he would consume an entire side of beef followed by a few neighbors because he wasn't full enough, who can say?

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

FYI, I am trying to make an effort in this regard. I am definitely not doing perfectly thus far, but today he had a mushroom and cheddar omelette for breakfast, I packed him a meat sandwich instead of a PBJ, and he had a bag of pistachios in place of one of the fruits I'd have normally given him.

To some degree, we're all already lower carb than we were just because I stopped eating gluten - it's normal at dinner now to have meat and two vegetables, or some beany thing and a salad, or whatever. Even treats are sugary, but not FLOUR AND sugary, anymore :p

[failstoexist.livejournal.com]

Does he actually feel hungry all the time, or can he sometimes hold himself over for a bit with a piece of gum or something? Maybe there are smaller things he could have instead of a big meal...a piece of fruit instead of a bowl of soup, even. It's not so much that he's eating often, or a lot, it's just...it doesn't seem like an amount that should be necessary to sustain someone his size, even if he's very active. I would package his snacks smaller, and have him space them out so that he can munch on something and not feel totally empty, but not need to feel totally satisfied all the time.

I think if he's used to eating something so filling when he feels a little hungry, he'll expect it. if he's used to taking the edge off with a small snack and waiting for lunch, maybe he'll grow to be able to tolerate feeling hungry a bit, and not have the huge behavioral response. If he's drinking plenty of water and eating filling meals, he shouldn't need that many snacks. And his response to being hungry is a little extreme. While it's normal to be a bit grouchy or whatnot, being completely unable to function if you go 30 minutes without food isn't...and it sounds like a habit he's gotten into more so than something that is really uncontrollable.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair it's more like 90 minutes (from a meal...45 from a snack) than 30...but yeah, it's not like that makes it normal! I totally agree it's weird. I'm going to try shifting more towards protein and away from carbs after reading all the comments, and see if that changes anything.

A lot of his snacks really are small, though - eating a bell pepper or an apple or a piece of peanut butter toast are typical examples. He does have meals-sized snacks, too, though..I dunno, man. There have been lots and lots (AND LOTS :p) of times when he's had to deal with being hungry or not getting much (for him...), and they have never seemed to alter any of this.

I definitely ask him if he's really hungry or not pretty often. And I've tried gum (especially in the car), to no avail.

[failstoexist.livejournal.com]

It sounds like there's 2 elements to this...yes, he is hungry more than is normal, and eats more than maybe he should, but also, his emotional response when he's a little hungry is very intense. I know 7 1/2 is still young, but it's old enough that schools typically only have one small snacktime before lunch, and nothing until the end of the day...and expect the kids to be mostly OK with that. That's a fairly age-appropriate amount/spacing of food for a kid that age, so he's pretty far outside the norm.

If he's had these times with no food randomly and intermittently, it's not really effective at changing behavior. Speaking from a purely behavioral perspective, if you want to stop his wailing and crying it would have to be a consistent thing. But obviously if there's something medical/chemical/whatever going on that's making him SO hungry, then you wouldn't want to go that route.

If you could slowly space out his snacks more and more, moving them apart by 5-10 minutes at a time, you might be able to get him to tolerate a little bit less food. But that requires a little bit more of a schedule than you probably have going on right now, and monitoring him in his "eating whenever he's hungry"--which seems like a lot of work.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I'm totally aware of the school part - Elise went to a full year of preschool and half of Kindergarten, and even THOSE kids only had one snack per day (as was the case in Isaac's 3rd grade class, and at Annie and Elise's Girl Scout camp, and at their music camp....) That's part of what makes me feel like this is really out there - it would be a major impediment to him enjoying school, if he was in school, which seems pretty off :/

I'm ok with a lot of work, for me (pure Skinner-esque behaviorism is how I've done a whole lot, especially with toddlers and preschoolers), but it's an awful lot of discomfort and misery to cause him when, 1. I don't know if there is some chemical/whatever issue, and 2. I don't always really know if there is a reason to make a big deal of it. Like, yeah, ok, that is weird that school would be hard - but he's not in school. He's here, where he feeds himself, very well, and he's never been at all overweight. We've been able to make sleepovers and music camp and things work by planning ahead. So...is it actually a "problem"? I go back and forth on the answer.

Sometimes it seems really ironic to me that Jake was my one nursling that would just spend a few minutes at the breast and then be good to go for hours, all throughout babyhood :p

[failstoexist.livejournal.com]

I didn't so much mean that it would be a problem in school, so it's a problem...just that schools are generally pretty good about keeping kids fed so they don't get hungry and cranky, because trust me, we as teachers have no intention of spending the day around kids who are unable to learn because they're so hungry. So it does just reinforce the fact that it's not really something to be expected at his age.

To me personally, the crying/behavior when he's hungry would be a big deal, but the eating often wouldn't be if I could afford it and he could be responsible for grabbing a snack and saving it for later. That he's got horrible memories of a field trip because he was hungry strikes me as it being a bigger problem, too, because obviously it limited his enjoyment of an activity that should have been fun, and that was what he remembered of the day.

See what happens with more protein, maybe you can limit some of this...and perhaps one day Jake will grow into a giant man. :)

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

reinforce the fact that it's not really something to be expected at his age

That's what I was saying in the entry itself, and alluding to in the beginning of my last comment :) How unusual it is, is the basis for a lot of my head scratching here. And his potential for upset about it is the main thing I think about, and the main thing I've talked about here.

The idea that school standards might be irrelevant and that he's fine when he's regulating his own food, so why not just quit worrying about it and let him, is this whole other offshoot that comes to my mind when I think and talk more about this for a length of time. Among a bunch of other (some contradictory, like he has to go back to the doctor again) ideas.

Our doctor talks about him being 6' at 13. Which, supposedly, my father was? I don't even know, that's hard for me to contemplate :p

[medland.livejournal.com]

RTYI? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23404682

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I had to google that acronym!

That article seems to feature only parents who are trying and struggling to control their hungry kid's eating (like the mom who got upset that their kid was allowed seconds from the school lunch line? I have a hard time understanding that). It makes me wonder if I am the only person in the world who would just let my kid eat as much as they wanted to eat indefinitely so long as they were making healthy choices and had no ill effects.

I suppose the reality is that the people who do the controlling are generally the worried ones, and the people who don't are not seeing a problem, so they aren't showing up in BBC stories :p