A few things...

[altarflame]

The self sufficiency of my kids when I am out of commission never fails to amaze me. Today for instance, I am just starting to get over a hellacious ear infection (yesterday Grant had to take the day off while I got an emergency ENT appointment - the whole side of my face was swollen, I couldn't chew, and there was puss coming out of my ear). I've been kind of lazy and out of it since I got up, lazing about reading in my room. I walked out to get food to take with my antibiotics, and I found:

-Jake and Elise painting on the deck, surrounded by cups of water, paper towels, and other supplies
-Ananda at the computer desk playing Taylor Swift videos as she works on her new story
-Aaron in his room showing Isaac his caterpillar habitats and explaining what kind of butterflies they're going to be and what sort of food they need

Rock on.

---

Yesterday I became educated on the bizarre ICP subculture of juggalos. If you have no idea what they are, this is the four page article I read. The comments, the lyrics scattered throughout - the Graigslist ads linked on other sites. I really do not know where to begin. It seems to be a massive growing "family" throughout the midwest, centered around Detroit. Relatives are united by wearing clown paint on their faces (toddlers included), drinking some store brand soda called Faygo - which they're credited with keeping in business (as well as spraying innocent bystanders with supersoakers full of it), and yelling "WOOP WOOP!!" a lot. When they're not speaking in gangsta rap lyrics. Their gathering has events like oil wrestling, a BEACH BOYS BARBECUE, and helicopter rides. Oh, and 15,000 attendees, many of which are actively bartering things for titties (really). Then I saw the newest Insane Clown Posse video, for the song "Miracles" which is...uh...A BIT OF A DEPARTURE from their previous work, to say the least. An entertaining mix of extreme profanity, ignorant slang and spritual wonder, all from a couple of guys in clown makeup who are known for singing about stabbing someone to death while looking at some titties...they fly through space and oceans in this one, and ride on a tower, and feature their kids, all the while urging us to look around and see the magic. "Fucking rainbows, wow!"

Ever since seeing this, I am conflicted. The SNL parody is funny, but not as funny as the actual video. The number of sites and response videos attempting to explain that none of the things ICP are claiming are "miracles" (rainbows, magnets, giraffes) actually are is kinda intense. They're all like, uh, you idiots, every single things you are listing is perfectly scientifically explainable, none of it is a "miracle". And ICP kind of do themselves in saying something along the lines of "Fuck scientists, they just piss me off" in the song. BUT!!

Now I am in this uncomfortable and embarrassing position of feeling like, ok, ICP is generally really gross, and these hoardes of white trash that gather to beat each others' asses, get high and litter for 5 day long underage orgies are pretty HORRIFYING...so maybe it's good if there is a bit of depth and awe and general gratitude introduced into that crowd by their idols. Like, ok, I don't think they ever got mocked or linked to the degree they are now when it was all about murder and objectification. If they can reach the "juggalo" crowd (shudder) by speaking their language with an actual song about being positive and stopping to think, well damn. I'm just not irony-laden or hipster enough to talk any real shit about that.

ALSO. All these obviously-far-more-educated-people who are like, "Rainbows are not miracles, they're simple refractions of light and moisture, it's called a spectrum" and "your kids looking like you is not a miracle, it's basic genetics, haven't you heard of heredity".

DO I REALLY HAVE TO SIDE WITH THE FREAKING INSANE CLOWN POSSE ON AN ISSUE?!?!

It is my overwhelming frustration belief that science and miracles can be THE SAME THINGS...His sperm meets her egg equals...another person? There is more than just cell division in between sex and birth. Something bigger than what we understand or can see under a microscope is going down to result in a new, independent consciousness. You might not believe in souls, but I don't see how you can't believe there is a lot more than we understand and some of it really does seem miraculous, if in a more "common vernacular" than "websters" sort of way.

This is actually something I think about a lot - how my faith has never been challenged by science and I don't understand why science is "enough" for anyone. The big bang theory, ok, that's how it happened - why did that get set in motion? What was there before it? Mostly, why does science explain things thoroughly enough to placate so many intelligent people? To me it has always just opened up more questions, and/or pointed to a vast unknown. That my kids, who all look like me, are sitting on the deck looking at a full-arch, brightly vivid rainbow is a lot of genetics and refraction but it's also awe-inspiring and miraculous in a whole other way that is not just misplaced semantics. I would rather experience or be around childlike wonder than jaded cynism any day of the week.

Anyway. Whenever I see really insular, WACK, loyalty-driven replacement families (gangs, cults, the juggalos) it makes me feel sad that so many people are raised without actual loving families to fill that natural void we all have for a place to belong. And it makes me wonder about the degree to which we are biologically programmed to be a part of something - a religion, a culture, a handed-down trade; something larger than we are that we are born into, raised within, identify with and are validated by. Modern American youth, by and large, don't have much religion, or culture, or tradition, and are drifting and alone.

I don't teach my kids in absolutes, really - I say, "Christians believe" and "I believe" and I teach a lot of opposing views and give them a generally wide girth of space to make their own decisions within the framework of knowing their parents think x, y and z are the truth and are encouraging them to participate.

But I SEE them searching for absolutes, sometimes. For black and white. They are frustrated by gray areas, less secure in universal tolerance when what they are looking to me for is guidelines for living and it confuses me at times. Is that just human nature, to try to seek out a side to be on and be right on that side? And if so, is that something we'll never conquer, or something we are gonna be over in a few generations?

---

Sometimes I think it's weird that I actually read news articles of some sort most every day, I'm usually in the middle of a book, I THINK about psychology and neurology...all the time...and I talk to Grant, Shaun, Laura and Dama about things I'm thinking about constantly. But I rarely write here about things I'm thinking about. I write about what's happening in our lives, but not what's going on in my head. I love other peoples' blogs about philosophical ideas, moral quandries and hypothetical situations, but I think I just get that out in conversation. And emails, where my links usually end up. Part of this is because I don't have the time or energy to expend on debates and following up on the links others will inevitably send me to, and part of it is because my lj time is really limited and so in general I'd rather archive than bs if I have to choose. Then I get a day like today where the combination of deep inner ear swelling, throbbing head, fever, very strong antibiotics (750 mg Levaquin, WHAT, this is what I was taking when I was sent home after sepsis...), and heavy alternating-every-2-hour doses of Tylenol and Motrin has got me feeling fuzzy-brained and incapacitated and so what else do I have to do but lounge around blogging about hoohaw.

Speaking of hoohaw, another thing I've been pondering is the sort of paradox some atheists must find themselves in at times. What I mean is that on the one side, if religion really does improve some peoples' lives and make society better overall, then it should, logically, be encouraged - atheists should even see the perks of signing on! Social network, safety net, comforting ideas about the afterlife, explanations for the previously unexplained, someone in charge and keeping track, being loved and heard even when alone...but on the other side, one cannot really make an intellectual decision to believe based on pros and cons. Belief is primarily a feeling, and most hardcore atheists I know are also very steadfast about siding with TRUTH above all else, so to consciously steep yourself in some sort of blind sheep denial as a way to enhance your happiness or success would seem totally unacceptable. Like a real betrayal to yourself and reality. I know two atheists who say that they think all religion is crap, a balm for society's ills, opium for the masses, etc, but - necessary. Basically, better Christians and Muslims and Jews and so on than Juggalos. "People need their crutches." I can't help but feel this is an almost unedurably superior attitude, it reminds me of my pothead, unemployed stepfather spouting off between episodes of Star Trek about how everyone else was headed for the meat grinder...but whatever ;) The rest of the atheists I know seem to exude more of a baffled irritation at the faithful around them for buying such a load of horseshit, and think that in the interest of the previously mentioned importance of Truth above all else that everybody needs to WAKE UP. Hopefully within our childrens' lifetime.

I feel a lot more empathy for the second group of people because I also have a great love for and loyalty to Truth for the sake of itself. I think it's wrong to lie to children to spare their feelings or to spouses to avoid a fight or even ON THE INTERNET because it's anonymous. As with anything "natural" (which I know not everyone finds valuable or preferable, but I do), I also feel there is an inherent value to truth and honesty (which I think can mean slightly different things here - one an intangible part of reality and the other a way to express ourselves).

BUT! I have experienced enough deeply moving and overwhelming situations, "signs", feelings and so forth, all reinforced by history, observing the world around me and other peoples' experiences, that I have become convinced my faith is part of Truth. And so my committment to truth for the sake of itself drives me to confess this online, even when I know lots of skeptical and frustrated atheists (or Pagans, or agnostics, or "cultural Jews" - or devoutly Jewish people...) who I respect as awesome people are watching, and it kinda embarrasses me.

Such a circuitous maze :p

---

-I'm going to get back to my book (The Weight of Heaven, some fiction about a liberal, agnostic Ann Arbor couple who's only child dies and they take a job transfer to India to get away from every memory of him, but are still struggling to save their marriage...just amongst a totally different culture and with a lot more guilt for being privileged white people than they used to have)
-I'm trying to take it really easy today and get better...tonight and tomorrow night I have to put a lot of energy and time into finishing the last of Annie's presents. Tomorrow-daytime I have to get A and A new dance shoes and take them to a mandatory rehearsal. Sunday is Ananda's tea party (limitless cooking and cleaning all morning to prepare for the afternoon) and Aaron's show (packing him lunch and dinner and 2 changes of costume and getting him to Lincoln Rd and back).
-maybe I'll take a walk with whoever wants to come in a little while
-definitely think it's time for more motrin, this neverending pain is wearing. me. down.
-this shit is in "my good ear". ARGH. I am going to be deaf by the time I'm like 35 at this rate!

Comments

[theneolistickid.livejournal.com]

I think people get too concerned with the "how" and don't stop to look at "why".

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I don't think the how even covers how.

"Everything is made of atoms, which are made up of electrons (protons and neutrons) which orbit a nucleus"

Ok, WHAT? Where did atoms come from? Why is everything in our universe comprised of the same tiny particles, even different forms of matter? What is this tendency in nature for the microscopic to mirror the massive, such as how that atom is an awful lot like our planet and it's moon, or our whole solar system, or...how many things of how many sizes that we can't see? How do the electrons keep moving indefinitely?! Gravity, and gravitational pulls, are subjects that even when you understand (as much as any of us even can) the physics involved....are still unfathomable. We're given almost irrelevant details by science, endlessly fascinating and often useful, but explaining nothing.

"Whoa, a cake! This cake is delicious! How did it get here? Why does it exist in my kitchen?"
"That cake is a mixture of 8 cups of refined, bleached wheat pastry flour, which rises due to 4 tsp of baking powder having been added in as a leavening tool, and is sweet since it also contains both 2 cups of sugar refined from cane grown in fields and is covered in a layer of frosting that has - "
"No, no, no, HOW DID THIS CAKE GET HERE? Why is this cake on my counter???"
"The cake had to have been mixed in a large enough bowl to hold a significant amount of batter, stirred, and baked at a high temperature. It 'binded' by 3 chicken eggs, probably large by grade, which cause it to hold together on that plate, and -"
"Right, ok, who the hell mixed it up and baked it? For what purpose?"
"Well, cakes are usually baked to celebrate birthdays, anniversaries or other joyous occasions, generally by either an individual who enjoys the process or a company dedicated to making many cakes for profit - "
"Yeah I actually know that!! SO WHICH WAS IT IN THIS CASE, and can you name names?"

I understand saying "how can we possibly know who baked this cake? we walked in the kitchen at the same time you did, it's not like they left a freaking calling card!!" - I really do. That at least works rationally for me. We're all here pondering the unfathomable mystery of the spontaneous cake.

But to try to make some kind of case that science explains the cake and that settles it is and THERE IS NO MYSTERY HERE, it's a cake, put it under a microscope, vanilla with chocolate frosting, obvously from an oven! That's just...ridiculous. To me at least.

[theneolistickid.livejournal.com]

Totally.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

You may not believe that science has settled it; I really think I know some people who do, though. I am aware there are all different sorts of atheists; but this is an attitude I've encountered often, everywhere from RL friends to bumper stickers to facebook groups. The attitude that God can't be real because the Big Bang is, that a baby cannot be a miracle because we can dissect conception and label the parts. That anything that we can study and explain something about is obviously fact-based and therefore not having any spiritual properties.

I can totally understand thinking that no specific religion is the answer, and/or that maybe none of the ones we've come up with are: but it's hard - VERY HARD - for me to imagine science explaining everything...and the dismissal of any supernatural or holy possibilities, like the dissmissal of the idea of a creator or of souls, is what baffles me. If science has not explained or disproved these things yet, how can you say that it's obvious or factual they will not be proven or revealed or whatever at some point in the future?

I am talking about the general "you", here.

I don't think at all that the study of science leaves less room for God; I am reading something about neurology or hormones or genetics or the effects of different drugs every day, over here, independently, and I'm researching and reading to my kids about all kinds of natural science all day long as well. That is kind of the whole point of my post: I don't see the contradiction. I don't see where the scientific explanation takes the place of God, AT ALL. Knowing the earth is round and circles the sun, knowing the tiny pinprick stars are massive burning balls of gas, knowing that every atom in the desktop where my computer rests is in motion and that the coral I look at from a glass bottom boat is looking back at me - these things only enhance my wonder and worship for God. I don't understand why stumbling onto a piece of God's system (whoa, when we feel love, it coincides with oxytocin squirting inside of us!) negates that it is in fact God's system. I love that we can dissect and pull apart and understand. I see the huge benefits of knowing more about how things work for people currently living on earth, and I also just have a thirst to KNOW more. I know some people find God "enough" of an explanation, just like some people don't see the benefit of doing anything that doesn't directly benefit them, or that won't effect our planet in their lifetime...but that isn't me.

When I've had experiences of God I'm not consciously reaching for explanations at all; I'm usually just moved to tears. Later I sometimes dissect things skeptically, depending on whether or not it was a really subjective thing (like when it was only a feeling in the woods at camp as a teen, or something like that) but other times I really wish I had documented things more thoroughly (like with how things went down with Elise) because I actually HAVE experts trying to study it and telling me there is no scientific explanation.

I am definitely not out to actively struggle to discredit God in my daily life whenever possible; that makes about zero sense from my perspective.

Again, I get why you could just totally not believe in God, and I am definitely not trying to do some kind of convert Eruv thing.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I understand that as it pertains to science; it makes a lot of automatic sense when trying to figure something out scientifically.

With spiritual faith I think that once you have been sufficiently convinced of your beliefs, part of those beliefs is often to be obligated to or relieved to trust in them...for spiritual matters. I don't think that means you stop being discerning in general everyday life, though.

For instance, ok, I'm Christian. I had a daughter with very intense global brain damage. I prayed for her everyday, I read my devotional journal more fervently, and I thanked God and experienced wild hope when she started to be more and more "ok". But I also did therapies with her everyday, exclusively breastfed her, took her to neurologists, poured over test results with pediatricians, read everything I could find on neuroplasticity, even made lists of causative factors that could be helping her or might help her in the future. I could not sleep because she was most likely to start seizing while unconscious, and I FLIPPED when she hit one and then two because I'd been in absolute agony every "one day at a time" day but knew those milestone birthdays would tell us a lot about her long term prognosis. Anway, this is what I mean I guess about the two things coinciding in my mind - I have cried and been in absolute awe about the dozens and dozens of messages and emails I've received saying my daughter made someone either start believing again, or start believing for the first time...but I still look back and think, but how much did it have to do with the fact that they kept her cooler in her isolette like the latest research shows, to minimize the secondary injury, or how much did it do her to have the constant stimulation of a bunch of young siblings?

I also think it's somehow relevant that I don't want to live most of my life with scientific reasoning - how would I ever go about trusting a person, or trying for something super hard or that not many succeed at, or taking any risk at all that would make life worth living? Beyond a certain point I guess I do think a scientific mindset can be a bad thing.

[the-leh.livejournal.com]

But what happens when you're prayers aren't answered? How do you explain why some people are afforded a miracle and others are not? Would you still believe just as strongly if (heaven forbid, seriously) Elise had died?

Like, I have a horrible disease. More than one, even. Does that mean God abandoned me? Was I less faithful or less deserving of happiness? I don't think so, I'm just pointing out that sometimes, I wonder about these things.

I believe that there are miracles, and I believe in God, but at the same time, I have no explanation as to why they happen or why certain people get them and others do not.

[the-leh.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's that simple, that belief in God means you do not believe in the underpinnings of science. There are many, many very famous scientists who were not athiests or agnostics.

I believe in science and I believe in God. I don't agree that Modern science is built on the proving a hypothesis wrong. It seems to me that it's way more complicated than that.

[the-leh.livejournal.com]

Yes, this exactly. That is exactly how I feel about it. I was going to write a big long thing but the points I would have made would be pretty much the same.

[(Anonymous)]

Saying that because science hasn't answered your every question, that means god must be real/in control or whatever is kind of discounting science all together, and doesn't make much sense.

"Where did atoms come from? Why is everything in our universe comprised of the same tiny particles, even different forms of matter? What is this tendency in nature for the microscopic to mirror the massive, such as how that atom is an awful lot like our planet and it's moon, or our whole solar system, or...how many things of how many sizes that we can't see? How do the electrons keep moving indefinitely?!"

Those kinds of questions just seem silly to me because you must realise that a long time ago people were saying the same things about the earth being flat, the existence of other planets, what matter was made up of, etc etc. in relation to "we don't know everything, therefore god MUST be real". Then science discovered the answers. Science is constantly discovering more answers and, if given enough time, could obviously answer all the questions you've asked there. And, um, if you read more about science you would find that a lot of those questions have already been answered. Most of them, actually.

The logic you seem to have about mystery = god doesn't make sense. There is no mystery, there is just stuff we don't know yet. It's not a mystery, because there's already a clear and concise pattern in relation to scientific discoveries. We don't know something, it gets researched, and over time small bits and pieces of facts and truth become apparent. If you really think about it, in the scheme of things science has discovered an effing shitload of stuff in a very, very, very small amount of time. It's pretty insulting to call anything about that "ridiculous". You call the answers science gives you "almost irrelevant", but they are what saved your daughter's life. Not serendipity or inspiring others to believe.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I definitely did not say or mean to imply that if science hasn't answered every question, that proves God. I think you missed my meaning. I'm only saying I find it confusing and irrational for atheists to act as if science in anything disproves that there is anything supernatural or "more". Also, I meant that science's details can be irrelevant to the deeper philosophical questions of certain issues, like how the big bang doesn't really touch on what we are doing here on this planet. Not that they are always irrelevant, by any means - I mentioned in a later comment that I'm very aware science makes peoples' lives better on earth, as well as just having a thirst to KNOW more.

I have also said somewhere in this thread that I think often about how medicine played into my daughters' recovery. Ultimately though it's the medical professionals who told me the worst, and who now tell me THEY don't get it.

[the-leh.livejournal.com]

Yes. For me, when I think about the big bang and Darwin and all that, I think about how many things had to line up exactly perfectly for us to even exist. It does seem miraculous and it doesn't seem accidental, coincidental, or something that "just happened" due to the natural forces of the universe. I don't think we are here for no reason.

I think something caused all this to happen. Something much bigger than ourselves, bigger than what we can see and feel and touch.

[(Anonymous)]

The point is that there is an ENORMOUS, completely monstrous leap from believe there should be something bigger than ourselves to actually believing in a sentient, involved god. To me that leap is way more ridiculous than thinking that we all got here by "accident" (fyi we already know it was not an accident).

[the-leh.livejournal.com]

What's insulting is coming to a person's personal journal and writing them a rude anonymous comment. If you don't like what she's writing, perhaps you shouldn't read it. Just sayin'

[babyslime.livejournal.com]

I totally get what you're saying, but you also did not get what she said. Despite having a rational, scientific explanation for many of those things... she's saying she still regards them as miracles. Science may explain them, but it doesn't exactly "take away" people's ability to be mystified, moved or amazed by everyday shit. Like rainbows and babies.

For her, she sees all that as God... it isn't really an issue of, "science explains this, therefore God can't exist" it's an issue of, "Science may explain this, but that doesn't mean God isn't behind that science and beauty".
(For the record, I say this as someone who fundamentally disagrees with the notion while totally understanding and sympathizing with that "everyday miracle" thing... I just don't believe in God at all).

Also for the record: the condescending fervor in which you wrote this makes me think that you may have deliberately missed her point for the chance to say, "Nuh uh, ur just not learned" and feel superior to a religious person. O_o

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

1st and 2nd paragraph: EXACTLY!! Thank you.

Last bit: I totally get that impression as well, and that happens on the internet a LOT, BUT. I kind of understand it because IRL it is so incredibly taboo to "speak out" against this vast Christian majority that I think there is a lot of repressed hostility for some people that sort of "has to come out somewhere"...I always feel like it's pointless in here though because I really at least think (hope?) that I'm not the Christian who is pissing people off IRL...

[babyslime.livejournal.com]

I think you're being too kind. By allowing people to treat you like crap and not call them on it, you practically invite it. :-P Be a bitch more often! It's your damn journal. In real life, would you not be taken aback by having someone randomly walk up to you and speak to you like that? You don't have to be offended, but you can call someone on being an ass more than once in a blue moon... like, seriously dude. Stop bending over and taking it!

[daveandmonika.livejournal.com]

"There is no mystery, there is just stuff we don't know yet." ...so you don't hold with the orthodox view of quantum theory? 'Cuz that's pretty much what it's about: unkown vs. unknowable, and it isn't fully settled yet but the evidence is strong toward 'unknowable'.