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May. 25th, 2011 12:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
altarflameI've never really identified with feminists much*, partially I'm sure because I've chosen to be a stay at home mom to young kids in years gone by and because I'm naturally a (hetero)sexual submissive and I love to cook, and really if anything I've felt sort of attacked or alienated by the more vocal feminists I've encountered, online and IRL, historically. I mean I think it's wonderful and as it should be that women have equal rights where I live, and horrifying that women in other cultures still don't enjoy that, but I also can sit back and see both sides in some of the less politically correct debates about how we shouldn't be leaving boys behind in schools by focusing so much on girls, and this and that. I guess I've sort of had the (subconscious) attitude that feminism is a ship that has sailed, in the United States, and we're post-need for it and people need to calm down, now. I've heard some of the rhetoric about how people are gonna yell "man overboard" if a girl falls off a ship and how women have to struggle more to be respected in med school but none of that really provokes a strong reaction in me. When I was in high school a (black!) girl was valedictorian and my church minister was a woman and my Nana was manager of the warehouse where she worked with at least one guy under her and I guess the whole glass ceiling and discrimination seemed...off my radar?
That...is changing, in some significant ways.
1. I've never really liked movies all that much. I mean, there have always been a few movies I really love, but in general I'm not a movie-enthusiast who automatically jumps to them as a default idea for "something to do". In general I would say 80-90% of the movies I've watched in the last decade, I've watched because Grant wanted to watch them and I could stand the idea and so we watched them together (keeping in mind that Grant has still seen at least 3 times as many movies than I have in the last decade...he often watches alone or goes with Shaun). I've always thought that kind of totally passive way to be trapped for two hours was a waste of time when time is precious but I think it's actually way bigger than that, for me.
Exhibit A: A couple of years ago I heard of the Bechdel Test for movies for the first time. Basically it goes "does the movie have two female characters in it who talk TO EACH OTHER, about something other than a man?" That may sound sort of arbitrary but if you start thinking about it ALMOST NO FREAKING MOVIES PASS IT. The more you realize this, the more grossed out you (or I) become, realizing that women in movies exist to be either hot eye candy irrelevant to the plot, or some helpless no personality beautiful creature to be rescued. There's also frequently a female character who is long-lost, or unattainable, but basically a wisp of a male character's imagination either way. When you do actually get a real female character with depth or development, she almost always stands alone in an otherwise entirely male cast. BY CONTRAST, try to think of ANY movie that does not have at least two men talking about something other than a woman. It's basically impossible. This is nuts and to me it was a really radical eye opener about some embedded shit we try to pretend is long past but is really still in full swing. I'm not sure if this is about egocentric male film makers or real market research that shows "too many women" in films that aren't in tight latex make men think "chick flick" and run the other way, but IRL situations generally involve men AND WOMEN. I'm not, like, creating a chick-flick downer of a situation everywhere I go by existing, you know?
As someone who never sees action movies and has thus sort of ignored them completely, it is genuinely shocking and just...nuts, to me, that the way they in particular are is still flying in 2011! I mean, wtf?
Exhibits B&C: Both Disney movie crap. B, is for princesses needing to be rescued. Ananda and I talked about this the other day because she's picked up on me subtly steering Elise away from princesses at every turn and we were talking about it (Ananda never really liked princesses). We talked about how a Disney Princess is a creature that exists exclusively in fancy dress with flawless appearance and unrealistic body type, but also they exist to be RESCUED. They aren't Sarah from Labrynth, trying to get her brother back, or Hermione from Harry Potter, really out there fighting Voldemort, too (those are girls Annie can get behind) - they sit in a tower or castle or dungeon or dark forest until some guy comes along and saves them, with a very few exceptions. They also have very few personality traits - Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty and Snow White are ALWAYS pleasant and cheerful and kind, unless they're afraid. Then they go wide eyed and shriek O_o Jasmine at least has some spunk, although that's as far as it goes. Belle (the only one Annie ever liked) actually has a personality and independent interests, which is sort of fabulous. Anyway Annie really got this.
Annie and I also had a big talk about C, which is the complete and total and BIZARRE absence of mothers from Disney films. Whether tragic (Cinderella, Bambi, Pocahontas, Dumbo, Lilo and Stitch, Finding Nemo), unexplained (The Little Mermaid, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast), the default (Pinnocchio, who only had a male maker and a male mentor/conscience) or "complicated" (there is a mother in Peter Pan but the lost boys are motherless; in Lady and the Tramp the peripheral human woman becomes a mother but the puppy main character is orphaned; in The Lion King Simba has a mom but is close to his Dad and then has to grow up far away with no parents after his dad dies). In place of mothers we have fairies, fairy Godmothers, evil stepmothers and evil witches.
I think it's a lot of bullshit. I would way rather my kids grow up on Narnia and Oz and Harry Potter, imperfect though they are. I don't understand why this massive, dominating childrens' movie company is operating on these models. I know they're making some strides, but I don't think they're fast enough or impressive when compared to where they SHOULD BE at.
I look at Toy Story and it's like...they're about a little boy's toys, and we have the classic sci-fi hero and the cowboy, and then there are all these other archetypal male characters (soldiers, the dumpy good old boy Potato, the loyal dog, the fast car, etc). For chicks we get, what? BARBIE AND BO-PEEP and MRS Potato Head? Really? That's actually gross.
All this crap has gotten me thinking, and partially inspired this big ranty tumblr post in my queue that will be popping up soon about how male actors and comedians are allowed to appear middle aged on screen, or get a belly or have body hair, but not females, to an extent that is really fueling lay womens' self esteem problems and desire for plastic surgery.
It also made me sit there last night, watching the previews before Pirates of the Carribean, thinking. Damn. EVERY SINGLE PREVIEW was a bunch of men. There was the periodic hot chick literally hanging off of some guy's arm. And that was it.
The thing is that is not a reflection of real life. If it were I would get it. But I know female fire fighters and cops. I know female mothers get into extreme situations with kids, with birth. There are lots and lots of female doctors and lawyers and party goers and drug users and teachers and tattoo artists and writers and schemers and What. The. Fuck.
So yeah, it's occured to me that I've never really been a movie person because I don't really relate to movies because I happen to be a woman and movies are about men. This is kind of a huge personal revelation that I'm still processing.
Pirates of the Carribean, btw, had some satisfyingly fierce mermaids that got good screen time and Penelope Cruz's character was a fairly legitimate pirate, definitely a step up from Kiera Knightly - though it still didn't pass the Bechdel Test or anything crazy like that.
2. I'm becoming more and more aware of mens' intolerance and/or ignorance of women's bodies/bodily functions.
The most glaring and horrific example of what I mean that springs to mind is the way male OBs came in with chlorophorm and forceps and took childbirth away from midwives and turned it into a medicalized event with all sorts of hellish new traumatic side effects and risks. But I can't even get started on that or else this will rapidly become a ten chapter entry.
There is the way that media (and especially porn) have made pubic hair totally taboo and gross when from the dawn of time to 20 years ago it was totally normal and unquestioned for most people. Now it's actually a joke, a guaranteed EWW to mention or unveil in media unless you're on some site that's fetishized pubes.
That's for women only, of course. Men can have pubic hair unless they're gay or metrosexual or something O_o
I'm lucky enough to have never had to deal with having sex with a man who thought lactating breasts were disgusting, anti-sexual, off limits, etc, but...I've heard enough about women WEANING THEIR BABIES SO THEIR MEN CAN HAVE THEIR BREASTS BACK and not nursing their babies so their men won't think they're gross to be truly just flabbergasted. There's no way to say "THAT IS WHAT BREASTS ARE FOR" loud or long enough. I mean...men are attracted to big, full breasts because subconsciously, a. they signal fertility and an ability to feed their children, b. they are reminscent of the breasts they once fed from. I just...oh good grief there are not words enough for my horror with this. Breast implants make boobs look ENGORGED WITH MILK. That is the look women are achieving with them - milk engorgement. The only time titties ever look like that is if they're engorged or been made to look engorged permanently through implants.
Likewise this way that women have of sugar coating and pussyfooting around re: periods is not ok. Guys acting like it's humiliating to buy pads or pick pads out for their wife at the store is not ok. I can't drive through Miami without seeing 2-3 BILBOARDS for ROBOTIC PROSTATE SURGERY, and half a dozen trucks with literal balls hanging off the back of them. And yet I see "Tmi" cuts and facebook disclaimer apologies when a chick is gonna mention PMS or cramps??? If women have to know condoms come sized and understand the purpose of a reservoir tip and accept difference between circumcized and not circumcized men, I think men can handle hearing about choices between pads vs tampons vs diva cup vs cloth pad. Guys whip it out and pee outside and scratch wherever the hell they are and women are supposed to be all sneaky and undercover for the sake of their tender sensibilities?
I don't think so.
I get really angry about this kind of stuff.
and 3. Rape.
I haven't thought about this one as much so it will be shorter. The things that put it on my list of things making me reconsider feminism are:
-really stopping to think about how I would never go walking alone at night but will go walking at night with my husband...along with how I am jumpy in parking garages by myself while he never even thought of that, and so on and so forth. I've thought about this stuff over the past couple of years but recently he was talking about me wearing (gulp, this is sort of embarassing in a rush way to even mention this way) my collar to school and I was like, dude, are you serious? I have to stand outside the college around a bunch of thugged out dudes in a shady part of town waiting for him to come pick me up on days when he has the van. I don't need to invite trouble by having a freaking sign on me that says "I'm a big submissive pervert who likes to be dominated". He hadn't even thought of that kind of vulnerability factoring in, apologized and then we went back to brainstorming appropriate places (which mainly seem to be limited to "in our house when the kids are in bed" and when out to dinner just the two of us)
But yeah as enlightened as our society is, as far as we've come, the bottom line is still that as a member of "the weaker sex" it would be foolish for me make myself a target for rape.
-which brings up all this media hoopla that's been going down about women "Asking for it" by the way they dress or where they go... when are we gonna get to a point as a society where all the blame is on the rapist? Where it belongs?
I mean there is survival, ok, there is reality that just like there will always be pedophiles and always be kidnappers there will always be rapists and yeah I'm gonna teach my daughters not to walk through back alleys in miniskirts and tube tops but IF THEY EVER DO it will not be THEIR OWN FAULT if they get raped...
When a family member asked me if my ten year old sister had been LEADING OUR STEPFATHER ON, I was fucking PISSED at them - pre-sexual kids cannot lead an adult on, and even if they did, it's obviously then on the adult to, uh, act like an ADULT. And resist and not pounce and abuse.
We should be having that same reaction towards rapists. When we see a battered wife we don't say, "he was wrong, but she really did slack on keeping the house clean and lip off to him". Likewise there should be no "rape is terrible but what did she expect?" I mean probably she expected to be liked and admired because society tells all women you have to be sexy to be liked and admired. Until they get raped. Then they say you were asking for it by being OVERTLY or "too" sexy.
What I'm saying is that while it is smart to protect yourself and to be aware of your surroundings, nobody should have to view themself as some kind of bait. Like if I am in a bad neighborhood or I've got some cleavage hanging out I'm just chumming the waters because we all knows guys can't control themselves and compulsively rape when they see skin hanging out. I mean WTF?
We have a long way to go, in our mindsets and expectations, and I'm only just realizing how deeply embedded some of this stuff has been in my own mind.
*Just editing this in 2013 to say hell yes I identify strongly as a feminist now and for the past year or more.
That...is changing, in some significant ways.
1. I've never really liked movies all that much. I mean, there have always been a few movies I really love, but in general I'm not a movie-enthusiast who automatically jumps to them as a default idea for "something to do". In general I would say 80-90% of the movies I've watched in the last decade, I've watched because Grant wanted to watch them and I could stand the idea and so we watched them together (keeping in mind that Grant has still seen at least 3 times as many movies than I have in the last decade...he often watches alone or goes with Shaun). I've always thought that kind of totally passive way to be trapped for two hours was a waste of time when time is precious but I think it's actually way bigger than that, for me.
Exhibit A: A couple of years ago I heard of the Bechdel Test for movies for the first time. Basically it goes "does the movie have two female characters in it who talk TO EACH OTHER, about something other than a man?" That may sound sort of arbitrary but if you start thinking about it ALMOST NO FREAKING MOVIES PASS IT. The more you realize this, the more grossed out you (or I) become, realizing that women in movies exist to be either hot eye candy irrelevant to the plot, or some helpless no personality beautiful creature to be rescued. There's also frequently a female character who is long-lost, or unattainable, but basically a wisp of a male character's imagination either way. When you do actually get a real female character with depth or development, she almost always stands alone in an otherwise entirely male cast. BY CONTRAST, try to think of ANY movie that does not have at least two men talking about something other than a woman. It's basically impossible. This is nuts and to me it was a really radical eye opener about some embedded shit we try to pretend is long past but is really still in full swing. I'm not sure if this is about egocentric male film makers or real market research that shows "too many women" in films that aren't in tight latex make men think "chick flick" and run the other way, but IRL situations generally involve men AND WOMEN. I'm not, like, creating a chick-flick downer of a situation everywhere I go by existing, you know?
As someone who never sees action movies and has thus sort of ignored them completely, it is genuinely shocking and just...nuts, to me, that the way they in particular are is still flying in 2011! I mean, wtf?
Exhibits B&C: Both Disney movie crap. B, is for princesses needing to be rescued. Ananda and I talked about this the other day because she's picked up on me subtly steering Elise away from princesses at every turn and we were talking about it (Ananda never really liked princesses). We talked about how a Disney Princess is a creature that exists exclusively in fancy dress with flawless appearance and unrealistic body type, but also they exist to be RESCUED. They aren't Sarah from Labrynth, trying to get her brother back, or Hermione from Harry Potter, really out there fighting Voldemort, too (those are girls Annie can get behind) - they sit in a tower or castle or dungeon or dark forest until some guy comes along and saves them, with a very few exceptions. They also have very few personality traits - Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty and Snow White are ALWAYS pleasant and cheerful and kind, unless they're afraid. Then they go wide eyed and shriek O_o Jasmine at least has some spunk, although that's as far as it goes. Belle (the only one Annie ever liked) actually has a personality and independent interests, which is sort of fabulous. Anyway Annie really got this.
Annie and I also had a big talk about C, which is the complete and total and BIZARRE absence of mothers from Disney films. Whether tragic (Cinderella, Bambi, Pocahontas, Dumbo, Lilo and Stitch, Finding Nemo), unexplained (The Little Mermaid, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast), the default (Pinnocchio, who only had a male maker and a male mentor/conscience) or "complicated" (there is a mother in Peter Pan but the lost boys are motherless; in Lady and the Tramp the peripheral human woman becomes a mother but the puppy main character is orphaned; in The Lion King Simba has a mom but is close to his Dad and then has to grow up far away with no parents after his dad dies). In place of mothers we have fairies, fairy Godmothers, evil stepmothers and evil witches.
I think it's a lot of bullshit. I would way rather my kids grow up on Narnia and Oz and Harry Potter, imperfect though they are. I don't understand why this massive, dominating childrens' movie company is operating on these models. I know they're making some strides, but I don't think they're fast enough or impressive when compared to where they SHOULD BE at.
I look at Toy Story and it's like...they're about a little boy's toys, and we have the classic sci-fi hero and the cowboy, and then there are all these other archetypal male characters (soldiers, the dumpy good old boy Potato, the loyal dog, the fast car, etc). For chicks we get, what? BARBIE AND BO-PEEP and MRS Potato Head? Really? That's actually gross.
All this crap has gotten me thinking, and partially inspired this big ranty tumblr post in my queue that will be popping up soon about how male actors and comedians are allowed to appear middle aged on screen, or get a belly or have body hair, but not females, to an extent that is really fueling lay womens' self esteem problems and desire for plastic surgery.
It also made me sit there last night, watching the previews before Pirates of the Carribean, thinking. Damn. EVERY SINGLE PREVIEW was a bunch of men. There was the periodic hot chick literally hanging off of some guy's arm. And that was it.
The thing is that is not a reflection of real life. If it were I would get it. But I know female fire fighters and cops. I know female mothers get into extreme situations with kids, with birth. There are lots and lots of female doctors and lawyers and party goers and drug users and teachers and tattoo artists and writers and schemers and What. The. Fuck.
So yeah, it's occured to me that I've never really been a movie person because I don't really relate to movies because I happen to be a woman and movies are about men. This is kind of a huge personal revelation that I'm still processing.
Pirates of the Carribean, btw, had some satisfyingly fierce mermaids that got good screen time and Penelope Cruz's character was a fairly legitimate pirate, definitely a step up from Kiera Knightly - though it still didn't pass the Bechdel Test or anything crazy like that.
2. I'm becoming more and more aware of mens' intolerance and/or ignorance of women's bodies/bodily functions.
The most glaring and horrific example of what I mean that springs to mind is the way male OBs came in with chlorophorm and forceps and took childbirth away from midwives and turned it into a medicalized event with all sorts of hellish new traumatic side effects and risks. But I can't even get started on that or else this will rapidly become a ten chapter entry.
There is the way that media (and especially porn) have made pubic hair totally taboo and gross when from the dawn of time to 20 years ago it was totally normal and unquestioned for most people. Now it's actually a joke, a guaranteed EWW to mention or unveil in media unless you're on some site that's fetishized pubes.
That's for women only, of course. Men can have pubic hair unless they're gay or metrosexual or something O_o
I'm lucky enough to have never had to deal with having sex with a man who thought lactating breasts were disgusting, anti-sexual, off limits, etc, but...I've heard enough about women WEANING THEIR BABIES SO THEIR MEN CAN HAVE THEIR BREASTS BACK and not nursing their babies so their men won't think they're gross to be truly just flabbergasted. There's no way to say "THAT IS WHAT BREASTS ARE FOR" loud or long enough. I mean...men are attracted to big, full breasts because subconsciously, a. they signal fertility and an ability to feed their children, b. they are reminscent of the breasts they once fed from. I just...oh good grief there are not words enough for my horror with this. Breast implants make boobs look ENGORGED WITH MILK. That is the look women are achieving with them - milk engorgement. The only time titties ever look like that is if they're engorged or been made to look engorged permanently through implants.
Likewise this way that women have of sugar coating and pussyfooting around re: periods is not ok. Guys acting like it's humiliating to buy pads or pick pads out for their wife at the store is not ok. I can't drive through Miami without seeing 2-3 BILBOARDS for ROBOTIC PROSTATE SURGERY, and half a dozen trucks with literal balls hanging off the back of them. And yet I see "Tmi" cuts and facebook disclaimer apologies when a chick is gonna mention PMS or cramps??? If women have to know condoms come sized and understand the purpose of a reservoir tip and accept difference between circumcized and not circumcized men, I think men can handle hearing about choices between pads vs tampons vs diva cup vs cloth pad. Guys whip it out and pee outside and scratch wherever the hell they are and women are supposed to be all sneaky and undercover for the sake of their tender sensibilities?
I don't think so.
I get really angry about this kind of stuff.
and 3. Rape.
I haven't thought about this one as much so it will be shorter. The things that put it on my list of things making me reconsider feminism are:
-really stopping to think about how I would never go walking alone at night but will go walking at night with my husband...along with how I am jumpy in parking garages by myself while he never even thought of that, and so on and so forth. I've thought about this stuff over the past couple of years but recently he was talking about me wearing (gulp, this is sort of embarassing in a rush way to even mention this way) my collar to school and I was like, dude, are you serious? I have to stand outside the college around a bunch of thugged out dudes in a shady part of town waiting for him to come pick me up on days when he has the van. I don't need to invite trouble by having a freaking sign on me that says "I'm a big submissive pervert who likes to be dominated". He hadn't even thought of that kind of vulnerability factoring in, apologized and then we went back to brainstorming appropriate places (which mainly seem to be limited to "in our house when the kids are in bed" and when out to dinner just the two of us)
But yeah as enlightened as our society is, as far as we've come, the bottom line is still that as a member of "the weaker sex" it would be foolish for me make myself a target for rape.
-which brings up all this media hoopla that's been going down about women "Asking for it" by the way they dress or where they go... when are we gonna get to a point as a society where all the blame is on the rapist? Where it belongs?
I mean there is survival, ok, there is reality that just like there will always be pedophiles and always be kidnappers there will always be rapists and yeah I'm gonna teach my daughters not to walk through back alleys in miniskirts and tube tops but IF THEY EVER DO it will not be THEIR OWN FAULT if they get raped...
When a family member asked me if my ten year old sister had been LEADING OUR STEPFATHER ON, I was fucking PISSED at them - pre-sexual kids cannot lead an adult on, and even if they did, it's obviously then on the adult to, uh, act like an ADULT. And resist and not pounce and abuse.
We should be having that same reaction towards rapists. When we see a battered wife we don't say, "he was wrong, but she really did slack on keeping the house clean and lip off to him". Likewise there should be no "rape is terrible but what did she expect?" I mean probably she expected to be liked and admired because society tells all women you have to be sexy to be liked and admired. Until they get raped. Then they say you were asking for it by being OVERTLY or "too" sexy.
What I'm saying is that while it is smart to protect yourself and to be aware of your surroundings, nobody should have to view themself as some kind of bait. Like if I am in a bad neighborhood or I've got some cleavage hanging out I'm just chumming the waters because we all knows guys can't control themselves and compulsively rape when they see skin hanging out. I mean WTF?
We have a long way to go, in our mindsets and expectations, and I'm only just realizing how deeply embedded some of this stuff has been in my own mind.
*Just editing this in 2013 to say hell yes I identify strongly as a feminist now and for the past year or more.
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no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 06:43 pm (UTC)This is true, and weirds me out because I've seen the change. I'm 47 and my wife is 27: she's sometimes self-conscious about being "natural" down there, and is amazed that it doesn't "bother" me. Why should it? When I was in my 20's, women almost never shaved down there, and shaving down there always struck me as pointless.
On the mainstreaming of rape: this is worse and will only get worse as long as we (including most feminists) continue to genuflect to "multiculturalism." This is because Islam is rising in the West, and Islamic law explicitly blames a woman for "leading on" rapists if the woman dresses in anything other than full burka and veil and behaves in any but the most insanely demure manner. The American black "thug" culture, legitimized by persons such as the odious Nathan McCall
http://jordan179.livejournal.com/169764.html
is spreading both through the black community and other American subcultures, largely because it has been treated with respect rather than scorn by cultural leaders.
I understand your husband's POV on this though. He loves you, and the danger is real. If you have to be around sketchy people like those thugs, I'd advise you to carry a firearm, save that I suspect that you don't live in a legal carry area and the college almost certainly wouldn't be a legal carry area.
no subject
Date: 2011-05-26 03:20 am (UTC)It's frustrating to me that liberal people are so protective of Muslims because of the terrorist taboo, which I see as fucking ridiculous, that they can't see the very clear and real actual bad stuff in the religion. I mean these same people are all to keen to point out the flaws in Christian beliefs, and I get it that Christians are the ruling majority and all that but geez, Islam is SO vehemently, extremely against homosexuality and feminism, it's really scary...
no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 06:59 pm (UTC)I originally read the Twilight books because of an article about how they are one of the first book/movie series that was specifically geared towards a young female audience (vs young male/general audience). There are issues with rescue complexes and passivity with Bella in most of them, but at the core of it is a female protagonist who is portrayed as thinking, capable of having interesting adventures and strong (by the end of the series for sure, but I think she shows it in smaller ways in the first 3 as well). Huge step up from most of the stuff out there.
Collars - the one you are wearing is a bit out there as far as physical presence/noticeability! (which could be the point!) If you decided that collar-wearing is something you were interested in doing on a more continual basis there are other kinds that are definitely capable of flying under the radar for most "vanilla" onlookers but are pretty unmistakable for what they are to people who understand. Their site looks HORRIBLE right now but http://eternitycollars.com/index.php?cPath=20&osCsid=9d53819d387a23d0716f7ed4a687bdcf is what I have been wearing for the past year (holy cow a year already) and I <3 it. Feel free to ping me if you have more questions about that in particular :)
Also I carry a pepperspay on my keys wherever I go. I am really against using/carrying firearms for protection (simply because most of the time the people they are recommended to are not likely to/able to keep up with the training and practicing to be able to make carrying an asset rather than a liability), but pepperspray is pretty easy to learn and use!
no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 10:58 pm (UTC)Is that you in your icon? I love it!
There are quite a lot of articles on the Twilight series that make it seem like the worst misogyny ever published that really make you stop and think, though....
The collar I linked to it actually slightly different from the one I have - mine has little circle things the whole way around rather than being plain, but the O ring is more connected and less dangly, and can actually be tucked up fairly discreetly...I can't find a good image. Wow, the one at your link is really intense! I see it in the icon pic now. I don't really want to wear it all the time...neither of us are interested in "lifestyle" D/s stuff, it's really just a sexual thing with us and so when it comes out whatever is going on is instantly sexualized....
Dude I am so clumsy (re: pepperspray). I remember I had some in my house and accidentally sprayed Grant in the face with it once when we were just sitting there talking :x (this was when we were teenagers).
no subject
Date: 2011-05-26 07:08 am (UTC)To be fair, there are definitely some issues with the Twilight books, but (sadly?) having an articulate female protagonist is a huge thing in and of itself, nevermind Bella's other shortcomings!
Nothing wrong with sexualizing everything imo! :) Part of a huge thing that I personally get out of my own collar is the weight of it, it's comforting in a way.
I <3 mine, it's sparkly :) When we were collar shopping we kind of kept an eye to something I wouldn't need to take on/off a ton, for a number of reasons. Leather collars you have to take off whenever you shower/keep them from getting wet or it can mildew! And I didn't want anything that would catch on my hair. :) I think I might need to get a different one tho, I have lost some weight and it's sitting differently on my neck and uhhhh we might have fucked up the hinge pins from too much manhandling. Got my eye on something from http://www.ringofsteel.net/ :)
See I hear stories like that and I'm like ok... a firearm would be a baaaaad idea!
no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 07:46 pm (UTC)On feminism & labels--
1) I avoid calling myself a "feminist" too. It's not that I don't believe in equality, but I've toed the edge of places like LJ's feminism communities enough to think "Wow, I want NO PART of that hot mess." Basically, I see labels like "feminist" as meaning so many different things with loaded connotations to different people, and I don't want to use a label on myself to other people might attribute totally different (and potentially negative) meanings. And I don't mean "anti-feminists will dislike me because I say I'm a feminist," but "I don't want someone with a detailed, complex and nuanced idea of what feminism is to apply ALL THOSE THINGS to me because I might disagree with some or most of them."
2) I have also found myself in a weird place when it comes to male/female gender differences, perceptions, roles, equality, etc. I am currently a SAHW on the road to being a SAHM, I want to have at least four kids, I have a master's degree in ECE that some might say I am "wasting" since I basically got it so I'd be more informed when raising my future children, I'm fine with being basically a housewife right now (in fact, I freaking love it) and I'm in charge of things like dishes and laundry and cleaning the bathrooms and whatnot because of a mutual agreement I have with Mark about what he and I will do around the house. And we're not a "traditional gender roles" couple in many ways, especially in that I met him at the Rocky Horror Picture Show and he was in drag, but we are in that my mom is a SAHM whose youngest child is now almost 18 and my dad was the ultimate decision maker, at least on the surface, and they had a "you be in charge of the girl and I'll be in charge of the boys" type agreement when it came to major decisions, etc and that's where I come from. So I think I could say I was a feminist in many respects, but I presume there are other self-proclaimed feminists out there who would see me as setting the cause back quite a bit :)
Actually, now that I think about it, both of my grandmothers were SAHMs too (although my mom's mom went back to work when her kids were in middle school and up), but I guess that's not super unusual for that generation.
On movies--
3) I observed a while back that men are generally seen as more relatable as protagonists than women. Even in commercials-- females in commercials are often selling female-specific products (weight loss, pregnancy/menstruation, medications targeting women more than men, or commercials in which men and women are used interchangeably in a series of commercials like the Excedrin commercials), used alongside men as companions or props (any woman in a beer commercial usually fits the latter), or just plain ironic (women in a beer commercial as starring roles, like a commercial about girls hanging out and drinking. It's been done). Aside from that, in TV and movies, you often see men as someone "everyone" can get, but women as starring roles in movies meant for a primarily female audience.
part 2!
Date: 2011-05-25 07:46 pm (UTC)3) The classroom one age group up from mine at my recent job (Toddler 2-- kids roughly 2 1/2 to 3 1/2) had a huge "princess thing" going on last year, with a few little girls who were OBSESSED and refused to wear pants, wore really impractical sparkly play shoes, talked about being "pretty" and whatnot all the time... so they made a poster of real life princesses, who they are, where they live, and what they do. It had Princess Diana and a bunch of other princesses I've never heard of from various European countries, and it talked about some of their charitable work and ways they helped people. They used it as a teaching tool and I don't know how far they got with it, but I liked the approach.
On being a woman in general--
5) While I've been annoyed by some of the things I wrote above, I've never felt I suffered any real discrimination for being a woman. And I'm aware that being white and from a low-crime, upper-middle-class area, and having a supportive family and no real major life concerns in terms of my health or survival, has played a BIG role in this. But the only time I really feel like "Shit, but I'm a girl" is when I go to get my oil changed and they try to sell a bunch of stuff to me that my car probably doesn't need. And I'm sure that plenty of women could tell stories about stuff that would make the hair on the back of my neck stand up, so I don't deny that sexism happens, but I think when it's buffered by other forms of privilege it's really not much to speak of most of the time. If I was gay, a WOC, disabled, any combination of those I bet my experiences would be different because I'd be facing more social and cultural obstacles and sexism would inevitably come out.
On rape--
6) I never know what to say about this topic. I think that people who choose to do bad things are entirely responsible for their own actions. I also think, separately, people who knowingly put themselves in unsafe situations aren't making the best choices about keeping themselves safe. And I know that "rape" doesn't mean "walking down a dark alley at 3am and a man dressed all in black jumps out from the shadows." Rape can happen anywhere, to anyone, from any number of people, known and unknown, and sometimes it has NOTHING to do with staying safe or making choices or anything. But I know that I did stupid things in college like walk home alone at 2am from a club back to my dorm room in the middle of Boston, and luckily nothing ever happened, but I also knew I was taking a risk. I don't think we should ever jump to a place of victim-blaming after something happens because "coulda woulda shoulda" won't un-rape someone, and the most important thing after a rape is comforting and aiding the victim, not chastising them. But I think it's valuable to consider and teach ways to keep oneself safe without calling it victim-blaming, especially when it's preventative. It would be wonderful if we lived somewhere where a woman can go out alone at night and not have to worry about her safety, but doing it won't make this a safer world; sadly, it has to work in the opposite direction.
Re: part 2!
Date: 2011-05-25 07:47 pm (UTC)Re: part 2!
Date: 2011-05-25 08:00 pm (UTC)Re: part 2!
Date: 2011-05-25 09:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 08:20 pm (UTC)I agree that bodily functions shouldn't be a big deal. It happens. Get over it.
As for the rape thing, I don't think women should be punished for being raped but at the same time, I think it's okay to point out if they've screwed up somewhere and that lead to the rape. I think a little common sense goes a really long way. Don't put your drink down or accept drinks from anyone. Don't get so freaking drunk that you can't make rational decisions. Don't go off with a drunk guy alone unless you want to do something more. The walking in alleys in the middle of the night thing applies for everyone and for more than just rape. I don't think it should be a blame thing so much as an example of what not to do in order to keep yourself safe. We should be able to learn from others' mistakes so we don't do the same stupid things they did. Obviously that doesn't apply in cases of child molestation and whatnot. All you can really do there is teach your kids not to go off with strangers and how to react if someone tries to touch their privates or whatever. It certainly does not at all excuse the perpetrator's behavior, at all, ever. They are fully responsible for their actions and should be punished accordingly. I think the victims' rape is punishment enough if they were in a dumb situation and they feel crappy enough already without being made to feel like they deserve it. Nobody deserves to be raped. I don't care if they're walking down the street naked. If a person can't control themself enough to walk away, they should be locked away for everyone's safety. That's just ridiculous.
Also, going back to the feminism thing, I hate when men are painted as being these horrible, uncontrollable, rutting wild animals who should be barely tolerated, at best. I don't think we should look at every man as a potential rapist. The vast majority of them would never imagine harming a woman. All of the gender stereotyping in general pisses me off, though I don't think I would go so far as to do this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110524/ts_yblog_thelookout/parents-keep-childs-gender-under-wraps
no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 09:46 pm (UTC)I definitely think women need to know how to be smart and protect themselves, re: rape. But I don't think they should be blamed. I mean like the other night I was re-watching Clueless. I realize this is a dumb example, but bear with me. She was in some little tiny dress and heels to go to a high school party with a group of friends. But then there was ride confusion and even though she argued about it, she ended up getting a ride home with a guy she really didn't want to. And then when she fought off his advances he left her stranded in a liquor store parking lot in the middle of the night and drove off pissed. And it's like, shit. That was a really realistic scenario. It's not that crazy for girls to be dressed really sexy for parties or clubs or a dance or whatever and it's not that big of a jump to end up in that crazily vulnerable situation...whatever man. I just think that when someone gets raped, it's the rapists fault. Guys need to be held accountable, like have you seen that list? If you seen an unconscious woman, don't rape her. If you're with a girl who is intoxicated, don't rape her. If you see a girl in a short skirt walking alone, don't rape her. I mean fuck this is not rocket science :/
I definitely don't think we should be painting all men as horrible anything. I agree most are not rapists. I don't know man.
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Date: 2011-05-26 12:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-26 02:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-26 03:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 08:27 pm (UTC)Every time someone says pick up tampons on your way home home he's all 'grooaaaaan' lol
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Date: 2011-05-25 09:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 09:42 pm (UTC)If it was something a man had to stick up/on his peen I'd feel quite uncomfortable buying that for him too. I've never bought condoms in my life and hope I never have to.
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Date: 2011-05-25 09:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 09:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 09:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 09:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 10:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-25 10:56 pm (UTC)Not that I believe in Adam and Eve, more the moral of the tale.
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Date: 2011-05-26 03:16 am (UTC)Anyway it's clear we aren't going to see eye to eye here which is fine - as I said I really do get what you're saying about being grossed out by all of this, male female or otherwise as a modesty issue... It is really men who are more than happy to buy condoms or porn but are all grossed out about the concept of a tampon or the mention of a cramp, that I was complaining about - the double standard.
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Date: 2011-05-26 05:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-26 12:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-26 11:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-26 08:46 pm (UTC)I'd say that would be more geared towards protection of delicate/sensitive areas, not trying to be demure and respectable.
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Date: 2011-05-26 10:49 pm (UTC)So yeah I think Andrea is right about why they did it but wrong about the moral...as it was a punishment that caused them to lose their free and easy attitude towards nudity.
I'm not at all sure, judging from raising children at least, that modesty is natural or instinctual.
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Date: 2011-05-26 11:52 pm (UTC)Granted it's been a good few years since I read the bible but I don't think the basic story has changed.
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Date: 2011-05-27 06:31 am (UTC)Modesty and shame especially in relation to the body and bodily functions are learned behaviors from everything I've ever experienced or learned from secondary sources. Like you've said, anyone who has been around little kids can appreciate that!
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Date: 2011-05-27 06:49 am (UTC)Whether they are learned behaviours or natural, or their genesis lies somewhere in the middle, it doesn't really matter. Those motives and reactions are valid and people should be allowed to feel them and express them. It takes all sorts to make the world spin, each persons view on issues of body/body function and modesty are as valid as the next ones.
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Date: 2011-05-26 11:47 pm (UTC)Genesis says Adam and Eve used fig leaves to cover their nakedness after eating from the tree of knowledge and becoming aware of good and evil, right and wrong, displaying their nakedness publicly.
Fig leaves metaphorically cover shame.
It's been ingrained in humanity for a log time to act with modesty regarding our sexual bodies outside of an intimate relationship, it's more natural than not.
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Date: 2011-05-27 06:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-27 06:32 am (UTC)Lack of Body Hair
Date: 2011-05-25 10:41 pm (UTC)The lack of pubes has particularly always kind of creeped me out. I know, rationally, having a lot of fetishes myself, that everyone has the thing that does it for them and it just developed for varying reasons. But irrationally, I sometimes think "what does it mean that these particular partners I've had liked me shaved bare???" I mean bare = really young girl you know? And that's creepy on a lot of levels to me. I get that it's probably left over scripting from way back when we only lived 30 year so you were in full sexual/reproductive swing at 13, but... still. *ick* I miss the 70s porn... when chicks had full boar fros going on down there LOL
Re: Lack of Body Hair
Date: 2011-05-25 10:51 pm (UTC)Re: Lack of Body Hair
Date: 2011-05-25 10:59 pm (UTC)Re: Lack of Body Hair
Date: 2011-05-25 11:08 pm (UTC)I didn't have full bush that early, but by the time I was shaving for men I'd have five o'clock shadow within a few hours of shaving and never could understand why having sex with the prickly side of velcro was so appealing. LOL
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Date: 2011-05-26 02:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-26 02:46 am (UTC)Not to mention, her views on rape just shock the hell out of me. She apparently has a close friend who has some not very nice family members. Her mom won't let her stay over there and her reasoning is that if she gets "hurt" (raped) then she can just call 911. Rape is purely a physical thing to her. There is no emotional trauma involved with it in her mind. The kicker? She said, "I'm not going to get raped and even if I do, I can't get pregnant because I haven't even had a period." This makes me so incredibly sad. There are people out there who feel this way about rape! I was molested when I was 17 and almost 10 years later, I still can't stand to have my face touched in a certain place.
I do, however, agree with you that it is up to the adult to make the decision to not move forward on advances made by a child. Is it the child's fault? No because they are not capable of making good judgment calls. There is a reason why we differentiate between juvenile and adult offenders.
Re: movies. I don't watch very many because I have a small child, work full time, go to bed early, etc but when I do, I'm a chick flick or comedy kind of girl. I don't want something realistic when I'm trying to kick back and relax. I am soo with you on the Disney stuff though. I don't even want my little one to have a Barbie or a Bratz doll.
Re: menstruation. I have only JUST now gotten comfortable with the noise my pad wrappers make in a public bathroom. I still catch myself cringing every now and then if it makes a loud noise and then I say to myself, "they have periods too!" & just rip it open. It has definitely always been put in my head that periods are a private matter. Husband will go down the pad aisle with me and help me pick out pads though, lol.
SK
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Date: 2011-05-26 04:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-26 06:10 pm (UTC)Cinderella Ate My Daughter by Peggy Orenstein
Date: 2011-05-26 11:58 am (UTC)I've taught elementary school, and seeing it in mid-swing is kind of scary. Even though I don't have kids yet (I have a baby niece, though, which is what prompted me to read the Cinderella book!), I think we're all (male & female) responsible to help kids (male and female) in our lives to figure out who they are and how to interpret/counteract the ridiculous stereotypes all around.
I'm a long-time lurker--I think I started reading when you were pregnant with Jake! Thanks for this post--it's good stuff that needs to be talked about.
:) Lauren
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Date: 2011-05-26 06:09 pm (UTC)(we took my 5 year old to see rapunzel recently, and i was really disappointed that we did. as the mother of a dark, curly-haired, brown eyed girl, i cringed inwardly as we watched the dark, curly-haired witch abuse poor, long-golden haired rapunzel. and i feel like disney was TRYING with this movie to overcome the sort of helpless princess thing, but they still fall short. for example, in the end, the male lead cuts off rapunzel's magical hair, which frees her. why couldn't rapunzel be the one who cuts off her own hair? and yes, in the end she becomes a princess, with short brown hair, but it was still the long, golden hair that was magical.)
i've been accused of over-analyzing some stuff, but i also feel like disney stuff (beauty and the beast especially, although i also have issue with the male/female fish dynamics in finding nemo) normalizes emotionally abusive behavior. these aren't the messages i want my young daughters to absorb, or behaviors i want them to feel are okay when they are old enough to be in relationships.
i do consider myself a feminist, but that identity came out of my college experience, in which i learned about a lot of different branches of feminism, not just the sort of mainstream stuff.
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Date: 2011-05-26 11:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-28 04:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-28 04:04 am (UTC)