(no subject)

[altarflame]

I've been thinking a lot about marriage and divorce and kids out of wedlock and all that lately.

BEFORE YOU GET YOUR PANTIES IN A TWIST, I have divorced parents with their own divorced parents, I started having sex at 14 and I had 4 of my own 5 kids out of wedlock. With two different biological fathers. So I am not "throwing stones" or passing judgements on individuals here, ok? If anything I am reflecting on the damage that poor choices have caused in my own family and life history and wondering what it all means for "society".

Count yourself lucky that I'm too tired to write more - this is what I have for now, just random bits of what's floating around in my brain:

-"arranged marriages" in other cultures and strict religions typically work out well and last the lifetime, because the participants have really different expectations and worldviews about what marriage is all about
-it's proven again and again that married people are healthier and happier overall than single people, and FAR, FAR healthier and happier overall than divorced people - EVEN those who remarry
-divorce effects far more people than the two people who are married...it causes friendships to collapse, businesses to close, in-laws to disengage, and obviously it impacts any children in a big way
-my paternal grandparents were the only long term husband and wife I ever observed - they married in the 50s and she died in the late 90s or they would still be together. They fought A LOT. They struggled through medical issues, drinking issues, money problems, temperament clashes, all kinds of crap, I heard them screaming at each other in spanish any time I was over. But he misses her terribly, and THEY HELD THE FAMILY TOGETHER. They were there to lend money or offer a place to stay, because when two people combine resources there is more to go around, but beyond that they were a foundation - everyone went there for holiday gatherings, and reunions, and through phone calls and birthday cards they kept everyone informed on what cousins, aunts, uncles, etc were doing. You also invariably ran into other extended family members while visiting, which you were obligated to do. Since my Ma died and my Pa became a single guy, it's incredible how YEARS pass without any of us talking to each other. The point is I'm really glad they stayed the course. And he was devastated when she was gone, fights or no fights.
-my sister has pointed out that just about every Crazy Thing that happened when we were kids - psycho stepdad, embezzlement stuff, jail stuff, wacked out moving around, all kiiiiiiinds of things including my Dad giving up on life for about 7 years, would have most likely been completely avoided if my mom and Dad had just dealt with each other and made it work. He was way overly controlling, had a bad temper and he went out too much. He was also a good provider and a great dad. The men she ended up with in place of him were as bad or worse all around. She was hard to deal with, depressive and unmotivated. But the women he's ended up with are EASILY twice as bad that way as my mom. I think my sister is right.
-but what does all this MEAN, then, for the unhappy individual, like my friend irl who has no christian beliefs about marriage, is at her sexual peak, is passionate and beautiful and smart and feels unappreciated by her boring and unappreciative husband? Her kids love their house, she is able to stay home, but she's losing her mind and she was going to leave. It was all planned out. Then she had this nervous breakdown about losing her lifestyle - her event organizing, crafting, home with her kids lifestyle where the big house on big land is paid off - and she's realizing she has to...deal with him. Try to make it work, with him. Even though it all makes her stir crazy and miserable sometimes.
-I watch Grant's divorced parents. She has an ongoing stream of health issues, and money problems. They both pass their daughter's kids back and forth and struggle to try to raise them in two households with two sets of rules as single people with jobs and bills. Well, ok she is not single, but she remarried to someone who has cerebral palsy, and never had kids, and needs a lot of emotional support for everyday life, so in many ways she is on her own in the regard I'm talking about. The point is that I think sometimes how SIMPLE it would all seem, if they were still married, to work together. Schedules, rides, money. How much less unhappy he would be, how much more help with health stuff she would have, how much more stable the kids' lives would be. They're both committed to those grandkids, but without any other connection it can just get awkward. And don't even think of bringing the new, remarried guy in for disagreements or everything goes crazy - he has no inherent obligation to them, and it really shows. For him, it gets to a point with the daughter or the grandkids where he's had enough and thinks they need to just not be a part of their life. When that could never be the case for the people with the stronger bond and longer connection.

I guess it is just nuts to me how people give up in America. In the modern world. However it is accurate to say. It is nuts how people think divorce will fix their problems and give them a happier life. Or how it's even an option at all, after you made vows for life. Like what my mother's new husband has just done - she was going through menopause. She was moody and antisocial. She also went with him to the hospital when he had allergy problems and was there in place as the stepmother to his children. Those kids came to my nana and Pa's and got Christmas presents every year. They passed clothes down to my kids. My KIDS THINK OF THAT LOSER AS GRANDPA TODD, and still ask about him. And he "fell in love" with someone from his WoW Guild and left my mom? My mom and his mom are still friends. They worked at the same place, so one of them had to go. They shared one vehicle, so she was out a car, even though she'd have had her own if she hadn't been paying his legal bills. I just don't get it.

I know my mom is hard to live with. Believe me, I know. But you made a vow. You're a part of a larger family and there is interdependence and committment here. And kids.

There are obvious times I think it is better to be done with a spouse, like cheating in many cases (JESUS even said that could excuse a person to go get a divorce if they didn't have the fortitude to work through it), or when they are a danger to you or to the kids.

But even in those instances it's a sad thing that messes up a lot of stuff on a lot of levels. It just becomes the lesser of two evils after a certain point.

I'm going to be downright controversial and say that I think people divorcing like there's no tomorrow is part of the general selfishness of secular modern society - it's part of the value system that says you do what feels good, and stop doing things that don't feel good. And I have certainly been as guilty of following those sorts of guidelines as anyone.

I also have a huge advantage in this thought process of mine because, now, I have the best husband on earth, which allows me whatever bias I want to have. I was having my monthly bout of anemia weakness today and he swung by the grocery store on the way home from a 12 hour shift, and then came home and made me steak and shrooms in a cream sauce before singing to and praying with the baby to get her into bed.

But STILL! :p

Really though...I have divorced friends and relatives I don't want to alienate. I worry about how emphasizing marriage in a society that disallows gay marriage alienates gay people. I don't even always have a strong logical rebuttal to polyamorous or cohabiting arguments for happy freedom for all (though there are some pretty strong numbers to suggest that kind of stuff rarely works out...studies even show people who cohabit before marriage are more likely to divorce - and yes, I am in that group, too).

AND YET. What if it really WAS better for society at large - society being all these separate families and businesses and interdependencies like I've described here, on a much much larger scale - to have the pressure and the judgements and the stigmas alive and well? The kind of thing that, in that movie Walk the Line, made strangers insult June Carter in the grocery store for having gotten a public divorce? I think if my Ma and Pa had grown up now instead of then, they'd never have made it. Divorce just WASN'T AN OPTION, back then, people took marriage too seriously and so it "wasn't done". So they didn't do it. I cried for that poor woman in "The Scarlet Letter", but those people all had the village it takes. Right? RIGHT?!

And then there's also this whole thing with how birth control and abortion give women the freedom to be way more indepedent and also allow marriages to involve a lot less responsibility than they typically did a couple of generations ago. And those things also allow people to spend long portions of their lives responsible for nobody but themselves before attempting marriage or kids at all. And I don't think sex resulting in pregnancies was all a lot of saddling miserable people with unbearable workloads, back in the day, either - I think a lot of it is just a different mindset that comes from depending on each other in a good way.

But depending on anyone else is seen as being a leech in the society we live in today. People are embarassed to ask for help with a new baby, because after all, they CHOSE to have that baby. They're stigmatized for living with relatives or for needing a loan or they keep it a secret that they're on government aid of any sort. Everyone tries to pretend they're not in debt or not struggling, if they are. I think it's a lot of hooey. I think nationalized charity is a big part of all this, too, btw - people think a homeless person or a kid in the hospital or a single mom with a toddler on her hip are all irrelevant to them. Not their problem. There's help out there for them, or there should be. But that's cold...it's dehumanizing.



Just thinking. Thinking, late at night and delerious, which is even worse than normal! Feel free to interject.

Comments

[phoebebeast.livejournal.com]

Have you ever done one of those "What is your real age" tests? The ones whose bodies are 'younger' are those who eat well, are in a strong relationship, have close friendships and are affiliated with a religious community.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I think about this a lot. There was a big Time magazine cover a couple of years ago about "the God gene" and how they've isolated an area of human brains that is designed to perceive things as sacred and to worship and to be led and all.

Obviously religious people see this as God designing us as we were meant to be and non/anti-religious people see it as an explanation for how the masses can be so fooled, like it explains away any actual presence of holiness.

Either way, though, I don't see how it doesn't indicate that we really do benefit biologically and psychologically by being part of a faith group.

Like the studies that have proved people do better recovery when they're being prayed for, even when they don't know it (so it isn't a placebo effect) - maybe that is "energy", maybe it is the divine, but either way, isn't it a boon for praying?

Even if religion was just a "crutch" I would see it as a much more positive and productive crutch than, say, illegal drugs or alcoholism or many of the other crutches out there.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

It's just cited stuff I've read over the years, I don't have links as most of this was in magazines, like the Time thing, a few years back. I might search later tonight; it's harder for me to have blocks of time online during the day when everyone is awake.

The study you cite is interesting, though - I wonder if knowing you are being prayed for makes things seem that much more dire, thus influencing peoples' feelings on their own prognoses?

[phoebebeast.livejournal.com]

That is possible. Nonetheless, you can't deny that people who believe in something are somehow more accepting of what life dishes out. In many ways, I envy them their faith. I wish I could somehow believe that there's a reason for what happens, or there's some force out there watching out for me.

[zeldazonk.livejournal.com]

Wow. What you've said is exactly what the rest of the world always uses as a critique of the West. I'm just surprised to hear a Western person say it, but you've had the gamut of experiences dealing with broken marriages and all, so you know probably better than most.

I agree with you totally, but instead of religion, my anchor is my culture. I was always raised to view marriage as the foundation of family, and to be worked on as diligently as one would make repairs on their home. The trend here and now is to chase whims and family suffers greatly for that.

You've hit the nail right on the head. FWIW I've always admired the home you're creating for your kids, knowing what you dealt with in your own childhood, I've always imagined your home is such a haven for them.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

:)

[mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com]

I agree with you totally, but instead of religion, my anchor is my culture. I was always raised to view marriage as the foundation of family, and to be worked on as diligently as one would make repairs on their home.

I was raised to just keep putting pots under the leaks and stuffing rags in the cracks. But we both recognize that living in a home is different than living outside!

[aranel.livejournal.com]

I really, really agree with your last paragraph... I think the kind of contempt we sometimes see for people who need to lean on extended family, friends, and community in hard times, or who "irresponsibly" carry through an unplanned pregnancy even though they don't have a "real" job or a house or health insurance, etc., is really the flip side and consequence of government taking over the functions of looking after people. People see that the welfare system is messed up in various ways, but instead of focusing on what's wrong with the system and its perverse incentives, they just want to hate anyone who's relying on anyone else--even on family, friends, and church, which is the IDEAL if you ask me. The blaming of people who are dependent on family even as they are making a good-faith effort to support themselves and their kids makes me crazy--that's what families are FOR.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I agree. People think that because so much of their tax dollars go to social aid that they might not even agree with or resent, that they have "done their part".

[mommydama.livejournal.com]

This is interesting in the middle of my current situation. Brad and I stayed up way too late discussing family responsibilities last night. There are numerous monetary and health crises looming on the horizon for our extended families that have been discovered on this trip and one of the things we discussed is how little we would have in the way of resources to help out in these situations if we separated or divorced. We'd be the ones needing help. How OUR marriage dissolving impacts EVERY SINGLE PERSON in our extended family in almost entirely negative ways. *sigh*

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

So hard :/

[babyslime.livejournal.com]

Haven't read the rest of it but wanted to comment on this part before I continue:
""arranged marriages" in other cultures and strict religions typically work out well and last the lifetime,"
Is totally, completely untrue for lack of context more than anything else. In cultures were arranged marriages are upheld, women generally don't have the right to protest let alone leave. There are tons of stories of women trying to leave arranged marriages before they become slaves to their husbands, sometimes successfully and sometimes getting stoned to death and exiled. It's totally unfair to say they, as a whole, "work" when many women are trapped. I'm sure there's also many that work out great, but on a whole arranged marriages are sort of frowned upon for a variety of reasons (first and foremost by oft being about the trade of women for the sake of power or peace).

[aelf.livejournal.com]

I don't have any studies at hand, just my experience.

I worked for several years in a job owned by and predominantly run by Orthodox Jews. The majority of their marriages were arranged. Their marriages seemed to typically work out well and last. And as I was friendly with many of my coworkers, they were also willing to talk with me and clear up some of my biases and misconceptions about arranged marriages.

Also, I am friendly with several of my fellow Indian students, who are also part of, or working towards, arranged marriages. Again, they seem to have a good track record.

Just as people oversell the divorce rate in this country (not accounting for serial divorcers, etc), I think people also oversell horror stories of arranged marriages. Yes, in some cultures, women are treated wretchedly. That's a separate issue from arranged marriages, IMO.

[aranel.livejournal.com]

I think, too, that a lot of people don't recognize there's sort of a spectrum from the kind of arranged marriage where prospective spouses only have a couple of tightly chaperoned meetings (or even none) beforehand, and "informally arranged" marriages--where your parents set you up with the child of family friends, for instance, and families are involved in the courtship but not really directing it. I'm told that in Japan a lot of people "just happen" to end up married to the children of their parents' long-term business associates.

[phoebebeast.livejournal.com]

And because so much of Orthodox Jewish life is based on ritual, there are so many shared activities for these couples.

But I've always had the sense that where marriages were arranged, the couples work harder to make their relationship work rather than take it for granted that they'll stay together forever. Instead of meeting, falling in love and then searching for common interests or goals, they all ready have the common interests and goals and have to work on loving eachother.

[babyslime.livejournal.com]

To be honest orthodox jews were not the group I was thinking of when responding to that comment.
My response is based on a number of essays about the trade of women in arranged marriages, being denied freedom and rights to chose your mate (or to exit an arranged marriage by punishment, or exile from your culture or religious affiliation)... it kind of takes the "choice" out of it completely, which makes it necessary to make the relationship last, under penalty of xxx, so... well yeah of course it's going to "last". But is it really fair to compare that to two people falling desperately in love and being committed to spending their lives together. Taking the freedom and choice out of the situation kind of ensures they last... so it doesn't seem at all relevant, or fair, to compare to mate selection, falling in love, etc.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I totally know what you're saying and find that kind of thing (trading women, slavery, etc) deplorable...I was talking in the entry about the only kinds of things I've seen myself, which include the Orthodox Jews and the migrated Indian families that aelf was talking about. I have no experience with Muslims like she mentions but no reason to doubt her, either.

The closest experience I had was a young woman my mother worked with who was Indian, and who's parents had a spouse picked out for her in India. This woman went to college in Miami, had a lot of American friends, had never met the man, and was perfectly fine with it and said her parents got together the same way. This struck me as INSANE when I was witnessing it (I was a teenager with a completely Hollywood idea of what love is) but having learned a little more over the years, I think it makes a lot of sense for a lot of people. You can make a choice to love someone. Love can be a verb and it can deepen with mutual committment and years.

I'm still not sure it's something I could do, but I can at least understand the worldview now, and even see how going into a marriage knowing it will involve CHOOSING to love, and working things out, and mutual committment can end up resulting in a lifelong thing that never goes away because initial attraction has faded or you had too many arguments.

[medland.livejournal.com]

I think it's important to make a distinction between arranged marriages and forced marriages. The latter are always also the former but not vice versa.

[mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com]

Arranged marriages appear to work well in a context of civil rights and education for women. I would argue that in fact arranged marriages are necessary in a society that has decided to educate women if that society wants to continue existing.

[babyslime.livejournal.com]

Are you implying that educated women wouldn't not chose to marry... due to being educated?

[mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com]

No, it's more like this: if you spend your fertile years getting ejumicated, you need to get married basically immediately upon completion of your education, or you won't have many or any children. This is observably the case in the West, I am not sure why you are acting like I gave you the vapors.

There is also the problem that women generally want to marry up. Individually, this is not always true - I deliberately married down, because I wanted to get married and have children. But the more education women have, the more you are going to create a situation where women compete for a small number of high status men. If you want your society to survive you have to have mechanisms to prevent this.

[babyslime.livejournal.com]

Even though I think some of this comes of as naive (admittedly from your own experience with having 'the best husband in the world') I think you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone who doesn't agree with this statement, "I think people divorcing like there's no tomorrow is part of the general selfishness of secular modern society". Because there's no arguing it: there are marriages and divorces of convenience and I think the problem is a huge lack of respect for marriage and relationships. I don't blame birth control, abortions or (lack of) religion - but rather a modernizing of our culture, and the way we communicate with each other. It's a reflection more on our lack of care for each other, rather than for God, morals or similar subjects...
I think a lot of things could be learned about care and commitment and the importance of "the village" if we, as a culture, were willing to go back to thinking of each other, our cities, and our groups of friends as an extended family instead of potential enemies.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I don't really specifically BLAME birth control or abortions, I was just wondering "aloud" about how they might play in, as a part of the situation. It's easier to walk away from a man with no kids involved or with a baby on your hip, than with 3 or 5 or 7 kids in tow...and it's easier for a man to take it lightly that he can leave a woman, than a big family.

The thing is, I wonder how in the world a culture is supposed to move toward anything as one without a unifying standard. You know? I am very against forcing any religion on anyone, and very against governments disallowing freedoms that would mean they could control public opinion. But without anything functioning for society as religion has in generations past, there's no way to have a generalized, broad spectrum shift in any direction. Or so it seems to me.

This is me talking hypothetically because obviously I believe my religion is true or it wouldn't be my religion.

But it really is a real, non-hypothetical conundrum for me...because even seeing it as true, I genuinely DO NOT want to try to mandate or force it on anybody. I'd like it if people found what I see as the Truth for themselves but I'm not going to try to shove them in that direction. And I am really horrified by governments limiting things like differing beliefs, or orientations, or free speech in general...

So how can a culture shift, without a faith or creed or whatever that guides public opinion?


Also, I have friends who mean the world to me. But I have a sort of pet peeve about people equating them with family. This is because I've watched, over and over, as stepparents and in-laws and related extended peeps cease to be a part of peoples' lives anymore when divorces happen. What's left, is almost always blood, and/or people who've legally adopted or otherwise committed themselves in more than a "nice feelings, spoken promises" sort of way...my mother and I had it out about whether or not her soon to be x husband's kids were my Nana and Pa's grandkids, laura and I's siblings, etc, and she thought I was so cold hearted and judgemental and terrible because I told her I liked them, I would surely grow to love them, and yes they were "part of the family" - but she has to understand that you can't introduce an elementary schooler to a 20 something and say "this is your sister; you'll see her twice a year for as long as her Dad and I stay on good terms" and expect that to mean what "sister" means when we're talking about Laura and I. My kids have already loved and lost "Grandpa Jud" and "Grandpa Todd" and I've already decided whoever comes along next is first name only, for them.

I guess my point is, I think it is ok for actual family to trump the metaphorical family we all are to each other in certain ways. I love the sentiment, and I try hard to live it out as a Christian, through giving and how I treat people I encounter in my life; we even have a "We Are All One Human Family" bumper sticker, because that's the Key West slogan and I can dig it. And yet...it is usually the actual blood/legal family that has no choice but to put up with you when you've put everyone in your life through hell for extended periods, or had one too many emergencies for anyone else to deal with, or whatever. Good friends and strong communities can rarely be called upon to do the really sacrificial things families are obligated to. When they do - it is incredible, and even that much MORE meaningful because they CHOSE to do, out of sheer love. And I have experienced that, too. I am just saying that in addition to good will and acceptance among the population, the huge lack of respect for marriage that you mentioned is also a major specific problem area, that I feel would be leftover as an existing problem even if the one big human family thing came to pass...

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I said right around the cheating part that is also obviously better to leave a spouse who is dangerous to you or your kids.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

Also I feel awkward and uncomfortable going into anything about leaving people for abuse in detail here because I have a lot of personal relevant history with people who read this blog, be that my mother who stayed with people hurting us or the guy I left because he was hurting our kids. So that is probably part of why the theme wasn't expanded on more.

[mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com]

Well beating inferiors was a normal part of life then. And the husband was in charge.

[mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com]

I think if you're a 35yo man in a society where life expectancy is 40, and you're married to a 13yo, and if she fucks up you all starve, then it's ok to beat your wife.

[mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com]

Point being that we live in a completely different world, and how people think this is not because of the action of the gospel is mysterious to me. Even if the Resurrection isn't true, it's very obviously the ideas that arose from people believing in it that have given us this nice world where we mostly don't get beaten by our owners.

[gardenmama.livejournal.com]

THIS. I need to come back and reread this on days when I'm feeling frustrated with my husband and realize all the reasons that it's more important to work it out and have an intact family than walk away. I look at my divorced friend who is getting "free" money from her ex, and he has the kids half the time. She has way more free time than I do and so she's going out, dating, etc. She always asks me to join her (not on dates, obviously), and I can't. But really, I don't think she's happy. He walked out on her and gave her no choice in the matter, but she would have fought for the marriage.

I know people change over time and we aren't the same people we were when we got married (14 years ago now). But hopefully you grow together and not apart, you know?

Anyway, your entry really spoke to me.

Oh, and I think you could add that extended family is very important to this equation too. Here in the US the custom is the "nuclear family" and aunt, uncles, cousins, grandparents, etc are often far away and visited rarely. In the days of horse transportation when travel of more than a day wasn't really possible, people just stayed in larger family groups and supported each other. Divorce just didn't happen then. Perhaps just having that large support network was a big reason why. Not to say that there weren't dysfunctional families, I suppose, but today's isolation from extended family seems to me to be at the root of a lot of problems. Kids aren't learning from their elders and their experiences. Something important has been lost there.

[neurotic-orchid.livejournal.com]

Yeah, unwed mother here who agrees with everything you just said. Mind you, my particular situation is weird as f*ck. heh

[monkeyscience.livejournal.com]

It is so nice to feel like I'm not the only one in the universe who thinks all of this. And it's extra nice to hear it from someone who's BTDT in so many ways, whereas I'm the unmarried child of parents whose marriage is intact, who come from long lines of intact marriages. Thanks!

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

As the author of this post, the person who has been having these thought processes, I want to say:

YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING.

I am going to risk sounding mean or even hurting you to tell you that I really believe you have some kind of dysfunctional blinders on to not think Kris is dangerous. I've been SCARED for you guys, for years...I wonder if you are too subjective and too close to him or something because just what you allow me to know, is scary...

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

Also, the person I was mentioning, no...your case is not like hers at all!

Her husband never yells at anyone, never goes into rages, never pushes anyone or breaks anything. He doesn't have post-Iraq temperament issues or anything else. No creepy notes, no threats, no passive agressive hints about what could be possible.

He's just BORING. He's a tv watcher and she's an uber-hippy. He seems to have no personality at all, and she's tired of it, because she's a very passionate and vibrant person. Your situation is totally, totally different Sara. You had every reason in the WORLD to stop loving Kris!

two relevant posts

[mercyorbemoaned.livejournal.com]

http://anglocath.blogspot.com/2009/08/quiet-asteroid.html

http://anglocath.blogspot.com/2008/03/worst-thing-in-world.html