In Conclusion...

[altarflame]

I had a huuuuuuuuuuuuge headache earlier, partially from the rigors of trying to wrap my head around what I do or do not think is "right" for mothers to do while they're mothers.

The thing is, I don't generally go around thinking mothers are bad. I generally go around really, REALLY happy whenever I see parents with loved and well-adjusted kids. I have a heavy lot of exposure to moms who ditch their kids for years at a time to keep partying while the grandparents do the legwork, stepping back in only for the occassional drunken visit that ends with a call to the cops. No, really. More than one of these chicks between Grant and I's families, with 9 kids between the two of them. I myself grew up in some questionable circumstances. When I see a young single mom trying to find good childcare for while she's working and playing with the baby when she's off, I feel good about that.

But, of course, like everybody, I still have my ideas about what is "ideal", and they play heavily into the choices I make in my own life, for my own kids, with my own set of resources.

So when someone is in the public eye and requesting my vote, I can't help but analyze them in a way I wouldn't the average joe on the street. And in this case, the Sarah Palin case, it seemed really knee-jerk reaction obvious to me that someone with relative financial wealth, a 4 month old Downs baby AND four other kids probably shouldn't be spending 16 hours a day campaigning for a 16 hour a day job.

There are SO many ways to look at this, though. Maybe she sees a spot in the White House as an amazing opportunity to further awareness, research and funding - as well as plain old acceptance - of Down Syndrome, thusly having the potential to HUGELY improve her new son's life.

Maybe she's generally concerned about the state of the nation and/or world to such a degree that she feels she has to step up and do whatever has to be done to ensure her kids' long term safety and security.

Whatever the case, I've now seen two different pictures of her - one at her desk signing things and one on some steps speaking to a crowd - with the kid in a sling. I've learned that when she went back to work 3 days after giving birth, it was with the baby and his dad in tow. She's still nursing, which is commendable for anyone with a Downs baby as they have some major nursing hurdles that often make it impossible. There's also a shot of her holding him in a grocery store talking to some people.

Anyway, 3 pictures don't mean anything, but neither does my snap judgement or what I read on Yahoo! News that was 11 minutes old or a YouTube video someone edited down and presented in a certain context...I don't think anyone can know what her motives are, what kind of mother she is, any of it. I like it that she seems to really love and accept her kid, special needs and all. I like it that she went ahead and had him, knowing the difficulties that lay ahead. I like it that she's obviously making some big inconvenient efforts to keep him as close as possible while she works at the high powered job. I like it that she has 5 kids at all, because DAMN am I tired of the "Are they all yours?!" "Wow, how many - two, three, four - FIVE?!" "How do you do it - you must have your hands full!!" bs I have to hear from everyone I see in the grocery store.

And the great irony is that for all this thought I've put into her suitability for the role given her personal life - I still am up in the air about her politics! And, it hardly matters, because I still don't like McCain, who is the one actually running!

So, before I redirect you all back to the 24 hour old picture post you SHOULD be paying attention to ;) I would just like to add another topic for discussion that might make us all want to tear our hair out. Well, maybe it will make some of you want to post to stupid_free, who can know :p

Topic:
How do you, or how do you assume I, or how do you plan to (you pick) address children (of one's own) about controversial or subjective matters?

For instance, your kid overhears CNN and asks, "What is 'abortion'?" Or your Jewish child wants to know why other people wear cross necklaces. Or whatever.

I'm asking because I've realized a LOT of people assume that a homeschooling, Christian mother would be "brainwashing" their children in an effort to shield them from alternate ways of thinking and manipulate the odds that their kid will grow up agreeing with their own viewpoint.

Jumping right in to answer, when my kids asked what abortion is I told them in brief, generalized terms what it was, and then went on to say how I feel about it and how other people feel about it. To wit:

Ananda: What is abortion?
Me: *sigh* It's a medical procedure where a pregnant woman goes into the doctor and gets everything taken out of her uterus, so she isn't pregnant anymore.
Aaron: You mean the baby?
Me: The baby, or fetus, or whatever, and all the other stuff in there - the amniotic fluid and some blood clots and whatever.
Ananda: What do they do with it then?
Me: They throw it away.
Both: Screams of outrage, freaking out.
Me: I think it's wrong. I think it's killing the baby -
Ananda: BECAUSE IT IS!!!
Me: But a lot of other people don't think so, they think the baby isn't really alive until it's born, and so a woman should have the right to choose what happens to her own body and say whether she wants to have a baby or not.
Aaron: How can the baby not be alive when it's kicking?
Me: Well usually it's before there's kicking. Not always. But yeah, there is still a heartbeat and all that. I mean, I believe it is alive from the time it first exists, I believe God gives that new life a soul as soon as the cells come together -
Ananda: So do I.
Me: But not everyone even believes in God, and plenty of people think it's just a group of cells. It doesn't look like a baby yet.
Aaron: But it WOULD be a baby!
Me: I feel the same way, Bud. This is huge all over the country right now because everyone has a different opinion about it and they all feel really, really strongly. It's really hard to be 16 and pregnant, or pregnant with a baby you don't think you can afford to feed, or just pregnant when you weren't ready to have a baby, so some people feel like they can't deal with it. I don't think that is the baby's fault - I don't think it's right to punish a baby for what's going on in the woman's life. But it's a LOT, to be pregnant and have a baby. You saw me in and out of the hospital, it's a big deal that really changes you and puts a lot of risk on you.
Aaron: I can't believe that even happens, like what kind of doctor would do that? (looking near tears) I mean why can't they do what (person he cares about who was adopted who I won't name)'s mom did so the baby can still get a good family?

etc.

This is how we go about just about every conversation involving anything subjective. I wonder often if it would seem wrong to other Christian parents who think I should be telling my kids it's murder and a sin plain and simple, or if it would piss of the pro-choicers who think I'm conveying my biases loud and clear through my own beliefs, expressions, tone, history, etc etc. Probably both, I have a knack for that ;) But you know, we were at my friend Kristin's house the other day, and she is an Agnostic with pagan leanings. Her son was saying, "God!" about something and Aaron was like, "You shouldn't say that, it's bad to say the Lord's name in vain, it's like a curse word but way worse". The friend got mad and told me and Kristin "Aaron was yelling at him" (which he wasn't, but I think he just used it to mean "correcting me" or "scolding" or whatever). And I was like, "We believe in God and that it is wrong to say, so that's how Aaron feels and what he's used to. But you can just tell him, you don't believe in God, and so you don't think there's anything wrong with it. Or you can choose to not say it around him if you want to respect his beliefs. Or you can just let it go and he'll forget about it in a minute because that's how he is."

Later on, Aaron brought it up at home, saying he wanted to tell Darian that because he knows Darian doesn't believe in God and he thought it would be important to teach him about it so he can choose for himself. I told him that's his perogative, and I think it's kind of cool, but lots of other people are going to think it's really annoying and so if he's going to take that upon himself he needs to be ready for some people to get mad at him or not want to talk to him as much. Also, that it's Darian's house and so if it really makes Darian uncomfortable, he needs to just drop it.

I am always kind of shocked when I overhear some of the Catholic or Mormon parents I know saying things in these very absolute and rigid terms to children who've never heard of them before. Like, "evolution is wrong and liars believe it, but God is going to punish them". That sort of thing seriously makes me kind of shake my head and drop my jaw and blink a bunch of times. I regularly hang out with a VASTLY arrayed bunch of people...these last couple of weeks I hung out with Mormon homeschoolers, Catholic homeschoolers, the agnostic/Pagan family I mentioned, people at the non-denominational protestant church where the kids go to AWANA, our lesbian nanny, our VERY old fashioned and supersticious granite guy, my Baptist plumber neighbor, and our old high school friend Angel who is a major partying, apathetic, video game playing, womanizing somebody that seems to think it's still high school. And Shaun - who is probably the weirdest guy to anyone reading this, he's a film editor and a lapsed cradle catholic and a philosophy spouting investor...who thought we should get a houseboat to the point that he got us a personalized life ring for our deck - but I digress.

The point is it really takes me aback how everyone spouts their stuff like facts, in hushed tones of conspiracy that say it's assumed I obviously agree with them. And it makes me wonder how each of these groups sees me, and if it even matters, and by the way, how in the world were some people SURPRISED that I think mothers should stay home if they can, in that last post? Did anyone really think otherwise before I said it (this time)?

Anyway, no point. Go look at the pictures if you haven't -
From the 27th - http://altarflame.livejournal.com/327413.html
From the 29th - http://altarflame.livejournal.com/327803.html

Comments

[neurotic-orchid.livejournal.com]

I usually manage to piss off both sides of any issue, too. It's a special talent. :P

I like the way you described abortion and teaching about God to your kids. I think if I were describing abortion, I'd probably go into a bit more detail about the reasons for the pro-choice side, so as to make sure I wasn't leaving my kids with thoughts that these people are evil or horrible. But I think you managed that pretty well. It's got to be the MOST difficult topic to talk about in any kind of balanced way.

And I can't say I was "surprised" that you think mothers should stay home with their children. I guess I just felt that the last post was written in a less tolerant voice than I'm accustomed to hearing from you, and since it's on an issue that I care a lot about and take personally, I said something.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I really was "thinking out loud" with that post. From initial knee jerk reaction to this, with the whole process in between played out in the comments. I think most people see a blog entry as something purposely directed outward towards an audience from a solidified viewpoint...but I really do use this as my journal, and/or a way to have conversations with people far away. If that makes sense.

It is pretty rare that I see something in the middle of the day and have the time or opportunity to immediately write about it before any digestion has occured. And even today, it was very fly-by, with lots of lots of other things going on, and so that also influences tone I think.

[eternamariposa.livejournal.com]

I think that explaining harsh things to kids will always be difficult. Personally, I think that you tend to air on the side of assuming that you have to hold back on your own beliefs and concentrate on emphasizing how differently other people feel. I think that it is important to teach tolerance and acceptance and more than that, love of other people because of and in spite of differences. BUT, for me I think I would give a flat answer about abortion being wrong for example because I feel so strongly about it. I would say it as a fact because I believe that it is. BUT I would never teach my kids to think it was ok to look at the people who have abortions or support the right to choose as less than or flat out wrong. People are complex and we all live in a complicated world of context to be considered. The whole point of christianity is to love without trying weigh this sin against another. It isn't our job as christians to do anything else but love and support and encourage one another to attain the ideals that we believe in. So yeah, I think that it is cool to teach kids about your values in a passionate way, letting them know how deep and sincere your beleifs are. I just don't think it is so black and white as "this is what I think but a lot of people disagree with me so do whatever you want" or "do it my way or go to hell." I think that you can be a parent with convictions and still set a good open minded example, especially when you let your actions speak for themselves.

But that is just me. I think that political parenting is all about balancing honesty, conviction, and compassion, there is no room for sugar coated political correctness in the mix.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

haha, so far I have someone saying I didn't say enough about the pro-choice and someone else saying I really should have went further expressing how wrong it is. Just as I expected ;)

A and A were horrified enough on their own, with "just the facts", that it really didn't seem at all necessary to expound on the atrocitiy. They both went away from that conversation visibly shaken that there can be such horror in this world. I do feel in a case like this that it would be wrong on my part as their educator about the world to not let them know that tons and tons of people are ok with abortion - I mean abortions are happening all over this county every day. I am freaked out and really sad when I think about that. But it is the case. I'm not sure how to explain what I mean, just that I am not only emphasizing others and holding back myself, I am also trying to make sure they don't have such a sheltered and narrow world view that they go into a tailspin when they reach adolescence or adulthood or whatever. Part of forming relationships and making decisions for yourself about what you believe involves understanding your environment and culture...I dunno. Like even from the strictest Christian perspective, they need to understand that they could easily end up having sex with a guy/girl as a teen who then goes on to abort THEIR baby/expect them to abort it. It would be a bad disservice to leave them assuming abortion is just blatantly wrong in an obvious way that everyone understands inherently, and that nobody they ever care about will disagree...

I don't know how in the world I'm supposed to go about teaching that it's wrong as a fact but not that people who have them are wrong, btw. I know and care about some people who have had abortions and it gets really touchy just navigating that mine field.

[monkeyscience.livejournal.com]

FWIW, I'm Mormon and I don't have any kids, but I totally approve of your behavior in all situations you mentioned, and hope to do something similar when I do have kids. In fact, you gave me some good ideas. :D

Also, my parents were a bit more of the don't-ask-don't-tell sort (I had to find out what abortion was from an encyclopedia), but they definitely weren't the hellfire and damnation type. Most Mormons I know aren't like that (though some are certainly more rigid and protective than I would be), but I have no doubt that such people exist.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I recently heard a Mormon mother I know telling the person next to them that J.K.Rowling was just so wrong making Dumbledore gay in an interview after the HP series was over. She said, in a very dissapointed tone, "I can't believe she did that to all these poor kids, they didn't need to hear something like that". That's just the kind of thing I'm talking about, how people just talk without any sort of filter on their mouth, let alone their personal judgements. Not even stopping to consider that the person they're talking TO feels way oposite (as the person she was talking to definitely did).

Aside, my take on that:
1. Kids don't read interviews with J.K.Rowling, for the most part, grown-ups do.
2. I thought it was glaringly obvious that he was gay from, like, way back. My gaydar was going off by book 4.
3. WHO CARES?! So he was a celibate old man in totally appropriate platonic relationships with kids and adults, doing tons of good, who happened to be gay?

[babyslime.livejournal.com]

Two things stand out for me in this: I thought that if you WANT to come from an unbiased POV and teach your kids about both sides of abortion you didn't go about it well... but if you want to instill the bias in them then that's cool and there's nothing wrong. It's all sort of about what you wanted them to believe out of that, vs believing the other, vs. being able to choose themselves. I don't feel the language you used allowed them to choose for themselves - but again, that's not really "wrong" it's just a difference of how you're choosing to educate or indoctrinate them and I get that it's a hard subject.

I wasn't surprised, nor was I offended at your working mom thing - and I frequently wish I was a working mom full time, and plan to be.
I guess because I agree with what your intent and morals surrounding it, and share it, so I know what you're talking about and honestly didn't think to take offense...

Oh, and the other thing that stood out: if Aaron freaks over the use of the word "god" and says it's the worst curse word? Yeah, he's going to keel over and DIE three hours after I visit you. :-P

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

*I* internally flinch every time I hear someone say "God". A little. I try not to show it.

The thing is, I understand why it is not an offensive thing to most people. BUT! I have really went out of my way - really - since high school to stop saying things were gay, or retarded. I mean those things were, like, branded into the vocabulary of me and every person I hung out with. Here I am nearly 10 years later, never letting something like that slip...and yet none of the non-Christians I know are even willing to consider stopping with the "Goddamitt" and "Jesus Christ!", even just while they're around me! This especially stands out for me because I have this one long time bisexual friend who was in a string of strictly lesbian relationships and becoming more socially aware, and so SHE decided to weed the "gay" out of her slang and we talked about it and neither of us say that anymore. But she still uses the other words all the time around me even though we've openly discussed the double standard. I mean, come on. How would it sound to people if I went around swearing with other religions' deities and sacred symbols as curse words? I think I'd hear a lot of shit for that. Just because Christianity is mainstream and some of it's followers use it as an excuse for their bigotry doesn't make my faith any less worth of respect.

Anyway I am the weirdo who says "Fuck" like "the" in my own home but teaches my kids to never ever say "God" unless we're referencing or praying :p

Anyway, I truly believe abortion is tragic and very very sad. I want my kids to know that this is a valid viewpoint, and it's the one I have. I also want them to know that not everyone believes this, and that the laws in our country reflect the other set of beliefs, and that people who have abortions don't do it because they're evil or trying to be murderers. I, personally, think that is a very fair way to come at it, and definitely as unbiased as I'm willing to get...

You taking photography full time would be awesome. Seriously.

You leaving 3 day old Xan to persue a high powered career with long hours, and then going on the campaign trail for VP when he was 4 months would be a little different.

I REALLY REALLY wish I could write from home, too, at least part time with my kids safely in the care of someone else that I trust. But not when they're young infants, and when Elise was intensely special needs that took up a vast, vast majority of my time.

Anyway yeah I'm sure that is about the same intent and morality we share on working moms so whatever, wasted typing :p

[heavynleigh.livejournal.com]

I just want to say that your icon is made of win. It's one of Aidan's favorite jokes.

[(Anonymous)]

I had the same reaction as your kids when my mother first told me about abortion - and both of my parents were and are ultra pro choice. I can't imagine any kid - or any human! - having a different reaction, unless they were introduced to the concept after the age when their innocence got thoroughly destroyed, whatever that may have been for them.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I rather agree, and find it telling in a sad, sad, almost hopeles way.

Re: its 2:46 EST. we should be in bed.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

This is going to sound horrible, so please don't take it the wrong way:

I don't think you talk to your kids as much as I do, just based on you talking about relational difficulties you're having with emotional issues, and how "most people are". I engage my kids in conversation in the same tone and with the same vocabulary I use with adults pretty much constantly, from birth, reading from books when I run out of original material. It's always leading off in directions other people seem surprised by when they come up later. And it comprises most of what I think of as homeschooling, for about the first 6 years.

[the-leh.livejournal.com]

I don't think you should judge Mormons based on one family you know, or however many you know. We're all different. I would never talk to my kids in absolutes.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I was not in any way trying to imply that all Mormons are that way. I'm sorry if it came off that way. My old next door neighbors, who Aaron went over and visited with ALL THE TIME and who let my cat into their house every morning for years to mingle with their own pets and who I generally love, are Mormon.

The ones I am referencing here are also people I really love and respect, I was just kind of surprised by that one remark.

[the-leh.livejournal.com]

*sorry I haven't left better comments lately. I'm really tired. But I have been reading. I'll comment more on this tomorrow :)

[sevenmicks.livejournal.com]

*For instance, your kid overhears CNN and asks, "What is 'abortion'?"*

Funny you should ask, because we just had this incident with Connor last week. I am really upset by how I handled it. I gave a VERY vague answer to begin with, and his answers kept getting more and more detailed and I told the truth, but I'm thinking I just should have said that this was information for when he's older, because now he is totally freaked out and upset. He has now over the past few days become some sort of crazy pro-life activist, and it's all he wants to talk about. My husband is very VERY outspokenly pro-life (we're both very pro-life, but what I mean is, my husband is pretty active in pro-life causes), and Connor seems to be following this trend now. When I think of abortion, I think of it as wrong, and terrible, but my husband and my son both have very emotional, visceral reactions where they get exceedingly upset.

I wish I really would have cut Connor off and told him that I'm sorry, but some of the more detailed information will have to wait till he's a little older. :(

[tikismile.livejournal.com]

Coincidentally to what you are saying about Pallin, on the way home, I heard an interview with Pallin in which the reporter was talking about her having a baby swing and other "baby pariphenalia" in her office and holding meetings at her house (during which her 7 year old was "showing people" the baby). I think I've been mentally putting her in a position of being Governor of one of our "larger population" states, when in fact she's Governor of about 600,000 people and the bulk of them living in a few areas... so she can actually have meetings at her home. Which of course gets us right back to qualifications, but I just let my brain stop at the "okay, she's not ditching the kids all day" aspect of it.

With respect to difficult subjects and the media. I've taken the "low exposure" route with the kids I've raised/taken care of. I think kids Ananda and Aaron's age are old enough to actually be able to understand when you explain things to them carefully, but too much exposure and they can get really anxious by how "big" something is. I don't believe in leaving kids completely in the dark, but there are some conversations that most 5 and 6 year olds just aren't ready to have bouncing around in their minds, no matter how basic you try and make it.

It's like when my niece was 4 years old, she was looking at a scar on my arm and asked about it. I explained that I'd had a car accident and broken my arm so the hospital had to fix it for me. She asked why I had an accident, I said because I fell asleep while driving... she was stuck on "you fell asleep?, but how?" for an hour, it was a loop, she couldn't grasp it so it just kept playing in her mind. That was the first time it really dawned on me that sometimes you can't explain things until a kid is at the level that their comprehension of the world actually allows them to understand.

[maylea-moon.livejournal.com]

we don't believe it's a fetus isn't alive.

[maylea-moon.livejournal.com]

oh whoa, i thought someone would explain the alive thing but i guess not? anyway, pro-choicers don't believe that a fetus isn't alive. of course it is alive. we believe that it isn't a person with human rights until birth. :)

[lady-goodman.livejournal.com]

Something related to this that I've been struggling with myself..

I am pro-choice because I feel like ultimately such decisions need to be personal and up to the individual. But I didn't, until recently, actually read the language of roe v. wade and related abortion legislature. It definitely bugs me that we as women have to discuss the subject as though we don't actually know exactly what is going on within our bodies.

I don't personally believe that anyone who chooses to have an abortion actually believes that they are doing anything other than killing a baby. And I have multiple friends who have had more than one and would agree. Sure, no one says it like that (terminating a pregnancy maybe), but they know intellectually exactly what they're doing and are comfortable with that choice for them. I respect their right to make that decision even if it's not one I would be comfortable with for myself.

And yet for the sake of public debate and to protect abortion rights, we all have to talk about the procedure as though it's something else. Not a life. Not a viable baby. That is until the point when we DO want to carry a pregnancy to term, then we poor over those pictures of our 8 week old baby in awe. It's just mind boggling.

I mean I don't know if you realize this, but they don't actually perform the procedure until close to 12 weeks because the risk of perforating the uterus. You have an ultrasound beforehand so they know exactly how far along you are. There's no 'it's just cells,' 'it doesn't look like a baby.' And still, I think it's entirely possible to make that choice and be comfortable with it because it's the right choose for you and your life.

But shouldn't we at least be able to have honest, real direct conversations about this? The whole masking reality thing for the sake of clean politics is what bugs me. I guess it's more insulting or shocking to me that we lie and say 'it's not a real baby' when we don't want it and the opposite when we do, than the concept of someone saying I do NOT under any circumstances want to carry this unintended pregnancy. It may be a really ugly option to have available and I think most would prefer to improve women AND men's ability to avoid such circumstances over making that choice. But it IS what it IS.

[zeldazonk.livejournal.com]

I think abortion can be really traumatic for a child who doesn't understand things like rape, or birth control failures, or situations in life that make having a baby a bad choice.

My mother explained it to me when I was around 10. Very matter-of-fact, and she's staunchly pro-choice. And I've always been pro-choice. So I definitely think even if you want to, at this age, you're going to influence them more than anything else. You already did.

I'm Obama 110%, and to be honest, I don't like the fact that she's a new mom. We're in war, we're in major recession and are facing one of the most intense elections in modern history. I want people that are devoted 110% to this job. I don't care if that makes me sound....anti-woman?...but she's not in a position to be running the country. I don't want slings and nursing in the White House. We are potentiall up to invade yet another nation with possible nuclear weaponry and we still haven't stabilized the first country we invaded. This isn't the time for Sippy Cups.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

My kids do understand about birth control failure and that I, for instance, would be in a very dangerous situation if I got pregnant again. Calling on my own experiences in the hospital over the last year having a baby is a very intense example for them of why someone might NOT want to have a baby, they very much understand that I nearly died of c-section complications and that I have ptsd and saw my husband stuffing my wounds with gauze.

Anyway, yeah, no way in hell could I abort if I got pregnant. By Grant or by alleyway rape.

I'm not saying that to condemn those who do. I'm saying it to say, those varying situations don't change any of it for some of us. And, I mean, I DID start out very matter of fact about abortion, it was the kids who went crazy hysterical. I tried over and over to steer it back to matter of fact.

Anyway.

Obama has two little girls and a wife he seems close to. McCain is old as dirt and has problems related to previous cancers and surgeries. Everyone is going to bring their baggage and I would way rather someone with my set of priorities were calling the shots, to be honest...I'm kind of baffled by your last paragraph because I can think of very few things more heartening, for myself, than nursing and slings in the White House.

That doesn't really mean I think she is the right person for this. And I understand your points, really. I don't know.

[brightsoul.livejournal.com]

i would never criticize what you tell ananda or how your values and beliefs shape your children because that is our jobs as mothers - however, it might be important, at some point to let her know that not all pro-choice individuals believe the baby is not alive. that might be easiest, simplest way to explain their perspective to a child, but it's not the only reason some people support choice.

[mamablogess.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)]

I think that just because someone is politically pro-choice, it doesn't mean that they believe in abortion for themselves. I think that the conversation you had with your kids made it seem as though all pro-choicers don't think the fetus is alive, and would themselves abort if it wasn't the right time for them or if they had a downs baby. I just don't think that is true. I'm pro-choice, but that is not because I would ever abort a child. It's because I firmly believe that giving a fetus any civil rights is a very dangerous thing. If a fetus has rights, then the woman's rights can be legally trampled on when she is pregnant, in labor, or giving birth. This already happens in fact, and giving the fetus any more rights than it already has is a very dangerous thing for women giving birth. Also, the way politics is set up, it seems that I have to choose between anti-war, pro-environment, pro-choice, and pro-war, anti-environment, pro-life. I don't understand why they are always grouped together in this way, but they are, and instead of being able to vote on the issues individually, I'm forced to vote on the issues lumped together. To me, aside from the reason above, I can't in good conscience vote pro-life when that ticket also is pro-war and anti-environment. It seems more logical (and perhaps more moral?) that saving people's lives who are already here take priority over saving lives that haven't been born yet. So, due to those reasons, I have to vote pro-choice. It doesn't mean that I don't think an unborn baby isn't a person, or that I would ever abort a downs baby, or even the product of a rape. I think there is so much context to all of this that your kids are just too young to get, and the only way to explain it makes pro-choicers sound like horrible people. But you don't want them to meet one some day and have them thinking that that person must believe in abortion and has probably even had one. That's not always true.

[altarflame.livejournal.com]

I think you got the wrong impression of the conversation, somehow. I never mentioned the terms "pro-life" or "pro-choice" at all, and tried very hard to emphasize that people don't have abortions to kill babies - they do it because they feel like it's better to not have a baby because of their circumstances. I even talked about people believing that women have the choices over their own bodies and not being forced to have a baby, and how the country is really split up about it because everyone has an emotional opinion on whether it's right or wrong. I don't think what you're saying is what they think at all.

Also, I totally understand what you're saying about the way politics are set up, and am often frustrated by it myself as an anti-war, environmentalist pro-lifer. Who is not even really sure if I am completely pro-life politically because, like you said, that gets into these horrifying legalities with birth being legislated. It's really complex and individual which is why I try to avoid the labels of pro anything.